New ZT/Hinderer Flipper is Coming!!!0560/0561

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Originally Posted by Chris_Himself

I've bought like 4 Striders waiting on this knife so far and have a 5th coming on the way. I might as well buy the actual Hinderer at this point!

In terms of what they offer over the 0561 (at least on paper) it's probably nothing, the Strider community is kinda cool, other than that not really much else except that I guess you can have one NOW. I think ZT's machining and tolerances are on par with Strider and almost that of Chris Reeve if you've ever owned all 3 at the same time (I have).

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The biggest difference between the Striders/CRKs and the 0560/0561 is price. For those who are willing to remain patient, the price of the 0560/0561 will eventually fall to MAAP ($260.00). For those who aren't, I dare say they'd be better off buying a Strider or CRK than paying $400 plus for an 0560/0561. Don't get me wrong. ZT makes great knives. But Striders and CRKs are in a different league than ZTs if for no other reason than their projected market value. Spend $400 on a Strider or CRK today and it will be worth $400 tomorrow. Spend $400 on an 0560/0561 today and it will be worth $260.00 tomorrow. For some folks, projected market value isn't an important consideration in making their purchase decisions. (And more power to them, I say!) But for me, it is.

After waiting this long, a bit longer isn't a deal breaker. I'm still very much so looking forward to this knife... Hopefully sooner than later... I'll probaly EDC this knife a bit, but mostly it is going to be a hiking/adventure knife.

About the Striders... great knives, and I would own one if I could get over the ridiculously huge sharpening choil- on a knife that already has one of the worst cutting surface to handle ratios ever. Seriously... what the hell were they thinking while designing their folders? Gee, lets make a nine inch knife with a 3 inch cutting surface and just for the hell of it, lets take an extra 1/4" chunk out of the edge so people can better hook stuff they are cutting rather than cut it. Does anyone else agree with this?

Yeah. But this really isn't the place to discuss Striders. ;)

0560/0561- ELMAX steel, heavily MACHINED Titanium, KVT, excellent CUSTOMER SERVICE, superb WARRANTY.

Looks like Strider may want to drop their prices or step their game up;)

Yes I have owned many Striders and ZT's even the 0560. Have another one in transit to me:D

true true, sorry :-P

I'll make up for it by saying how happy I am with Kershaw and ZT for not including similar design flaws in their knives! :)

There you go. :)

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Originally Posted by Chris_Himself

I've bought like 4 Striders waiting on this knife so far and have a 5th coming on the way. I might as well buy the actual Hinderer at this point!

In terms of what they offer over the 0561 (at least on paper) it's probably nothing, the Strider community is kinda cool, other than that not really much else except that I guess you can have one NOW. I think ZT's machining and tolerances are on par with Strider and almost that of Chris Reeve if you've ever owned all 3 at the same time (I have).

I still stand behind the 0300 as the greatest hard use knife ever, at the expense of a ridiculously wide pocket carry :D

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With all due respect to Strider and Chris Reeve Knives, it's easy to get their products right now because they both are companies with a fairly narrow product line. They have been making SnG/SMF's and Sebenzas for years.

The ZT 0560 is a brand new product, and we have several brands and a much wider product line. Give it a little time and it will be easier to pick one up for MSRP or less.

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Originally Posted by bld522

The biggest difference between the Striders/CRKs and the 0560/0561 is price. For those who are willing to remain patient, the price of the 0560/0561 will eventually fall to MAAP ($260.00). For those who aren't, I dare say they'd be better off buying a Strider or CRK than paying $400 plus for an 0560/0561. Don't get me wrong. ZT makes great knives. But Striders and CRKs are in a different league than ZTs if for no other reason than their projected market value. Spend $400 on a Strider or CRK today and it will be worth $400 tomorrow. Spend $400 on an 0560/0561 today and it will be worth $260.00 tomorrow. For some folks, projected market value isn't an important consideration in making their purchase decisions. (And more power to them, I say!) But for me, it is.

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Please don't think I am attacking you - I just take some issue with this overall concept.

I suppose I am biased, but I would argue that ZT knives are not in a different league than a Strider or a Chris Reeve. What are we really basing this on? Great design? Got it. Precision machining? Got it. High end / exotic steels and materials? Got it. Robust build? Got it. High quality / tight tolerances? Got it. Great warrantee service? Got it.

The biggest difference I see is the price tag. Are we really basing what "league" a product is in by price?

In my very humble opinion, the only reason the companies mentioned can charge that much more is because their following is willing to pay it. We could price our knives higher, but we choose not to. I don't think that makes a ZT a lesser product.

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Originally Posted by brandnewcolony

0560/0561- ELMAX steel, heavily MACHINED Titanium, KVT, excellent CUSTOMER SERVICE, superb WARRANTY.

Looks like Strider may want to drop their prices or step their game up;)

Yes I have owned many Striders and ZT's even the 0560. Have another one in transit to me:D

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This is what I was trying to say without saying it :)

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Originally Posted by brandnewcolony

0560/0561- ELMAX steel, heavily MACHINED Titanium, KVT, excellent CUSTOMER SERVICE, superb WARRANTY.

Looks like Strider may want to drop their prices or step their game up;)

Yes I have owned many Striders and ZT's even the 0560. Have another one in transit to me:D

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:D:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::

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Originally Posted by jimmer_5

The biggest difference I see is the price tag.

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I agree entirely. But that's a BIG difference, or at least it is for me. I'm simply not willing to spend $400 on a knife the market (and ZT's own MAAP pricing) says is worth $260. That's what most of ZT's internet resellers are selling it for . . . or will be selling it for once they have it in stock. Is a $260 full-production knife in the same league as $400 limited-production knives? From the standpoint of materials, fit and finish, it very well may be. But in the final analysis, I'd suggest that's for the market to decide.

Lets be real here, Striders have a higher price tag and do they spend the extra time and money to machine out the titanium in their handles, NO. Do they have a state of the art pivot system(KVT), NO. Is their fit and finish hit or miss, YES. Do they have good customer service, NO, their CS is pretty much non existent.

So the real question being is ZT offering a hell of a deal at the $260,$350-$400 price of the 0560/0561 or is Strider making a killing at the $400-$550 price tag on the SnG's/SmF's?

You decide, I sold all my Strider's if that tells you anything;)

And I've never bought any. But I do have a Sebenza or two. ;)

Even though I agree with everything you've said about Striders, look at the prices they command on the secondary market. If you buy an 0560/0561 today for $400, put it up and sell it a year from now, do you really think you'll get $400 for it? That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm not attempting to compare the intrinsic value of a Strider versus an 0560/0561. I'm simply trying to compare their resale values down the road. And when I do that, I'd say the advantage goes to Strider.

One thing to keep in mind is that we're comparing apples to oranges here. It's difficult to make an argument that production knives from a thriving company are going to remain scarce in the long run. And scarcity is part of what keeps prices up on limited production and custom knives.

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Originally Posted by bld522

I agree entirely. But that's a BIG difference, or at least it is for me. I'm simply not willing to spend $400 on a knife the market (and ZT's own MAAP pricing) says is worth $260. That's what most of ZT's internet resellers are selling it for . . . or will be selling it for once they have it in stock. Is a $260 full-production knife in the same league as $400 limited-production knives? From the standpoint of materials, fit and finish, it very well may be. But in the final analysis, I'd suggest that's for the market to decide.

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I take no issue with this point - as a fellow collector, resale value means something to me as well. I just take issue with the fact that people act like a ZT is somehow a lesser knife because we offer it at a lower price, while offering the same or better materials, construction, design , warrantee, etc.

Let's also remember that ZT knives will always be somewhat limited in production.

For the record, I don't want this thread to turn into a pissing match about who makes a better knife, and my comments probably aren't helping. So let's all try to get back on topic here! :)

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Originally Posted by bld522

And I've never bought any. But I do have a Sebenza or two. ;)

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Haha, I also have a few Sebenzas, and it's a proven design. However, Chris Reeve, in my opinion also has to step their game up. Sure their knives are great but why not offer something new and cutting edge like what ZT is doing? New super steels, additional machining, excellent ergo's etc.

YMMV but I would be really hard pressed to spend my money on another CRK until I see something new. ZT is doing some tremendous things lately and I can only hope that it will put some pressure on other companies to get their thinking caps on:)

This is my last comment on the subject, I promise;)

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Originally Posted by jimmer_5

I take no issue with this point - as a fellow collector, resale value means something to me as well. I just take issue with the fact that people act like a ZT is somehow a lesser knife because we offer it at a lower price, while offering the same or better materials, construction, design , warrantee, etc.)

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Make no mistake about it, Jim. I do NOT fall into that group. And I very much look forward to the day when my 0560 arrives. It will take its rightful place alongside my other cherished folders. Meanwhile, I have to believe that KAI gets a big grin on its face every time it looks at the 0560/0561 backorder situation. You and I both know what a home run you hit with these knives. You've just got to gear up to meet the demand. :)

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Originally Posted by bld522

The biggest difference between the Striders/CRKs and the 0560/0561 is price. For those who are willing to remain patient, the price of the 0560/0561 will eventually fall to MAAP ($260.00). For those who aren't, I dare say they'd be better off buying a Strider or CRK than paying $400 plus for an 0560/0561. Don't get me wrong. ZT makes great knives. But Striders and CRKs are in a different league than ZTs if for no other reason than their projected market value. Spend $400 on a Strider or CRK today and it will be worth $400 tomorrow. Spend $400 on an 0560/0561 today and it will be worth $260.00 tomorrow. For some folks, projected market value isn't an important consideration in making their purchase decisions. (And more power to them, I say!) But for me, it is.

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I've been harping on this perspective for a while now, and will again give it here.

As enthusiasts there are a few ways to look at this genre of knives. There is the big industry picture, and the individualistic picture. While neither are wrong or bad, I just feel to give the flip side of story when the individualistic point of view is posted.

When making market value comparisons all facts have to be presented so to give a clear and accurate picture. As you say bld522, the market value with CRK's and Striders vs. ZT's needs to be considered. Not everyone uses these knives for their intended purposes, and secondary value is important. In this case, Striders and CRK's should hold their value better.

The counter to the above which puts ZT on a completely different planet than these other two manufacturers are the extreme differences with the programs, discounts, and volume that are available from each brand.

One could say that the initial price you pay on a ZT is outrageously inexpensive in comparison due to our ability to have all that the other two brands have with regards to materials, spec's, and yes even tolerances. The kicker is that dealers and even distributors can actually make real money on the product. There are no small margin deals on ZT as with the others. There's full margin to be had, and even wholesalers have the ability to profit on the line. This is a very uncommon occurrence with knives in this industry genre.

This is important for a variety of reasons, firstly it assists dealers and distributors with financial support that aids in their future. This channel of product hasn't ever had much to offer when it come to that type of support.
Availability additionally increases as the number of outlets are greatly enhanced. It's important to us that consumers, lot's of consumers, have the ability to purchase this type product somewhat regularly. They don't just have to be bought on the secondary market.

Could we go direct? Have minimal dealer margins available? Yes and yes, but we're looking at this genre of knives in a different way, a bigger way. Right or wrong it's important to us that we push more volume and discounts than we normally see with this type knife in it's price point, and not max out profit for ourselves.

In the end distributors, dealers, and ultimately you the consumer can financially benefit from the experience of the brand Zero Tolerance.

Whoa! Nice post, Thomas. I knew I was barely scratching the surface when I said comparing ZT knives to Striders and CRKs is like comparing apples to oranges. There's so much more here than meets the eye and you fleshed it out beautifully. Thanks for taking the time to do that. :thumbup:

Can not agree with you more jimmer_5!

I would trade my small 21 for a 0560 if I had the chance.

I want my 0561!!!!! sorry, I had to get that off my chest.