my sebenza v. para 2 rant

[ryanv403]

I love seeing all of the sebenza fanboys getting all defensive over their precious knife, in no way was this post bashing sebenzas, he was only stating his opinion...

[Tim616]

was that really necessary? anyone who states an opinion on the bladeforums is usually met with more hostility than praise. Its a wonderful thing about America, everyone can have an opinion.

I agree with Marthinus, Peeintheshower's post and anyone else's post on this subject isn't causing any problems, if you don't like his views don't respond to his threads! Its not like hes in the CRK forum posting this.

To the op I agree 100% that's why my small sebby got kicked out of my pocket by a plain jain s30v para 2.



Oh and TIM616 were still waiting on your post in the W&C

Oh soo good to have fan boys. Head over to the EDC thread in watch forums, drool over my patek collection and complain some more thanks, we know you're anti-reeve because he wouldnt repair your abused knife for free, plz QQ more.

[videl]

Like i said i havent ever owned a CRK so i cant make a real good opinion, but the fit and finish and tolerance arent the best, but is it in terms of the quality of the materials used is it as good?

If you wanted to melt both down to scrap metal then yes you could say the materials are of equal value, but if thats all you see in a knife you probably will never get or buy CRK, nothing wrong with that your entitled to your opinion.

lets say you do not have an hex key set or torx set.

Every new sebenza comes with an allen wrench included, and you are encouraged to maintain your knife.

[deathofallthings]

Sebenza is a good knife. So is the paramilitary 2. I have a couple of both. I like my benchmade 960-801 better than both of them... by a lot. Everyone has a favorite knife, some people's cons are others pros. The people who are so concerned with the sebenza's price are just the people who aren't as into this, or haven't been into this as long. There's a lot more expensive knives out there.

[wolf5391]

last time I checked Lamborghini didn't make watches

lol love the trollin.

Seriously when are you ever gonna reply to that thread?

We miss you "DR." Tim616.

Always good for a laugh though, I have to give you that.

[peeintheshower]

Can you really compare them since you don't own one?

yes i had a love affair with my para 2 at first sight. i am at the 3 day mark of still carying the small sebenza

[Elgreco]

If my knife locks up rock solid while still being smooth to deploy, I could care less if the hole in the blade is .001 tighter to the pivot bushing. Come on. You guys can't tell me you spend $400 on a knife just because of tolerances. That's ridiculous. If you like it, who cares if someone else doesn't?

[rpdknife]

Both are great knives. For the money the Para can't be beat, but I enjoy carrying the Sebenza more. The Sebenza is a study in simplicity; to truly appreciate the knife you have to carry it for a while, take it apart, lube it and reassemble it. It goes back together perfectly every time. Anyway, it comes down to a personal choice and with these options you really can't go wrong. The only question is large, small or in between:



Threads need more pictures!

[marthinus]

Well, here is some food for thought, or just some good reading material regarding tight tolerances, that CRK is renowned for, locks and high dollar knives that Sal Glesser, owner of Spyderco has mentioned through the years on the forums (ps, search is your friend).

Another thing to remember is that the Manufacturing Quality award that CRK has won so many times are not chosen by a panel, it is voted for by fellow knife makers. Even Bob Dozier, a very established maker in his own right has CRK pocket knives and I love his motto of : if it feels like climbing through a barbed wire fence, there is something wrong. Slim, sleek and simple knives.

A few weeks back, in this thread, someone asked if there was a Spyderco which could compete with the Sebenza. Sal eventually chimed in. His post was primarily a response to someone's skepticism regarding the origins of the framelock. He noted that he had, in his personal collection, a Chris Reeve knife with an earlier lock of Chris' called the "Lock 45". He further noted that it dated back to the 1970's and was the predecessor of the Reeve Integral Lock. That lead to someone asking what it looked like, at which point he suggested sending it to me to be photographed. He also noted in a later post that it was a small knife. It arrived a couple days ago and he wasn't kidding about its size. For the benefit of those who like "dimensional data" it weighs 1.375 ounces (40 grams) has a closed length of 2 13/16" (71 mm), a blade length of 2 7/32" (57mm) with a 2 1/16" (52mm) cutting edge, and is 5/16" (8mm) thick. For those who find photographic comparisons easier to visualize, the first photo below shows it with a Kiwi and my LH Mnandi.

Beyond that, it's an intriguing design. The action is glassy smooth and the lock up is rock solid despite the fact that the blade is only supported from one side. The small thumb stud and smooth handle, thin on the off side, make it difficult to open, but might be less of a problem for someone right handed and with better motor skills. No clip, that was probably not even a gleam in Sal's eye yet. I'm assuming the handle is titanium anodized to a bronze hue but that, and any other questions regarding it would best be answered by Sal, or someone intimately familiar with Chris Reeve's early knives.

Closed, lock side:

close up, to show one of the two ball bearings:

The balls do not serve as detents, just to smooth the action. Only friction holds the blade closed.

Another close up, note the angled locking surfaces on the blade...

Lock side view, half open. You can almost see the lower ball bearing:

Top view, almost fully open:

Fully open, lock side:

Finally, the design does have one peculiarity, you can fold the blade in the wrong direction, at least until the thumb stud makes contact with the frame...

Paul

My Personal Website - - - - - - A Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting - - - - - - Kiwimania
Dead horses beaten, sacred cows tipped, chimeras hunted when time permits.
Spyderco Collector # 043 - - WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
It's easy to grin when your ship comes in and good fortune and fame are your lot, but the man worthwhile is the man who can smile with his shorts twsited up in a knot. - Morey Amsterdam

Well, I cannot speak for Chris Reeve Knives, but I will offer an opinion.

I've known Chris and Ann for many years. We worked together when Chris was in South Africa.

A CRK knife is not a custom knife, nor is it a production knife. They are in a class by themselves. They've taken many years to develop their reputation.

Each piece is custom made by skilled custom makers. CRK tolerances and standards are the highest I've seen in processes like surface grinding and heat treat. There is a limit to their production capacity.

Chris is pretty anal on quality. "Quality is time. = Time is money". He pays his craftsmen a fair wage, and he charges a fair margin, he gives the world a product like no other. Chris and Ann work hard and they make a good living. "Enormous profits" is an inside joke that Chris and I laugh about. Frankly, I think they'd feel guilty if they made too much money.

The "Market" will determine if his business strategies work, regardless of what they are. If they don't work, adjustments are made....that's how businesses survive.

BTW, the flip side of a "bargain driven" market is manufacturers are forced to import product (export jobs) from China to compete in the need for the "lower price". More complications.

sal

Hi Dulleddown,

More profit is usually associated with higher price. That's normal. Profit is usually a percentage of sales price. To think that a high priced auto should garner the same proft as a low priced auto is not in accord with business. It might be the same percentage, but being more expensive, it will be more profit.

Unless you are a manufacturer, familiar with close tolerance manufacturing of heat treated steel & Titanium parts, you are not likely to be able to see all of the differences between one of Chris' knives and others. For example; CRK keeps 0.0005 tolerance on surface grinding. That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledsge and equipment to discover that tolerance?

In the end, it's all about trust. CRK took many years to build and maintain their repuation. Built with consistent focus. Even those trying to make a "cheaper" version must "leave out processes" or "soften their tolerance", or they will cost as much.

Rarely do you pay for the "name". That's a bullshit sales pitch made up by the ignorant claiming to offer the same for less. Money valuation between countries might offer a "deal" for a while until the money value balances, but all in all, you will get what you pay for.

sal

-----------------------------------------------------

Just because you can't see the difference doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means you can't see it.

Hi GWLee,

The benefit of tight tolerances is usually for long term durability as well as smooth function. Long term durability is difficult to determine in a short term decision. That's why reputation is important.

sal

Nice video.

High dollar knives are high dollar because they cost more to make. It might be materials (Titanium, unubtanium, etc.), it might be tolerances (Chris' has lotsa zeros after the decimal before hitting numbers), it might be labor (carving, engraving, etc.).

Sometmes those differences are difficult if not impossible for even the trained eye to detenct, generally impossible for a new student.

Just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean it isn't there, sometimes it just means you can't see it.

sal

At the same time there are many people that feel the knife is not worth it, I did until I read Sal Glesser's comments and bought one myself after 3 years of saving (the knife was later taken in a mugging) and I was UTTERLY UNDERWHELMED when I bought it, even though I handled it before hand I just felt like owning something of true quality for the first time in my life (like a good quality car/suite/watch/camera). Until I used it non stop, on the farm etc and everything just started "flowing" and making sence. I replaced the stolen knife with an Insingo. I will always have a CRK and they retail for around $625 here. They are, for me at least, worth it and my personal connection, what the Sebenza has meant in my life, makes it special for me.

I have rambled a bit, but I hope some of what I have said has helped you to form your own opinion on the matter.

[FW JSB]

Excellent post, marthinus.

[zl1]

Geez people get really worked up over Sebenzas

[Jeru]

so i would like to start of by saying that i am not trying to cause problems. I know the reasons why a sebenza is much more expensive then a spyderco. pride of ownership is a big part of this subject. i do not own the small sebenza, and i do own the para 2. (...) what i really dislike about the small sebenza that makes me like my para more (...) if the exact same knife as the sebenza was reproduced for the same price as the para 2.. i would have a hard time choosing.. i think that the pros in the para 2 just make the decision clear for me in a hypothetical 120$ sebenza situation. even still. they are both US made. i believe i am not so fond of the sebenza because it is not mine if i owned it i might swear by the knife. it is made to cut and it is extremely capable at its job, but then again so is the para 2. my conclusion is that i think that i am not ready to jump into higher end knives just yet. except i really want a hinderer/ZT . i do not feel or see the hype, and personaly i would not shell out that money for one. once again i am not hating. i just do not believe i am ready.

Excellent post! You're absolutely not causing any problems, just formed an opinion, like Marthinus already stated. Maybe some Sebenza-fanboys got offended but I actually completely agree with your opinion. Especially since I am such a weirdo that can only carry folders tip-down! I really hate tip-up carry. Since you can't swap the pocketclip on a CRK, that's the first reason for me absolutely not wanting one. Secondly I don't like hollow grinds. Thirdly I take a Spydie hole (or a thumb disk) over a thumb stud any day of the week. So even when you could buy a Sebbie for 120 USD I still wouldn't buy one! And most definitely not for 3-400 USD! For half of that money I can get lifetime free sharpening and lifetime exchangeable no-questions-asked warranty from Zero Tolerance and I am allowed to take it apart. On top of that, I'm allowed to flick open my way cheaper Spydies and ZT's, while with CRK's that's called 'abuse' (WTF?!) So personally, for my taste, CRK folders are overpriced and there are no other options then hollow grind and tip-up carry. I don't care how tight CRK's tolerances are, they don't suit me or my wallet. And I agree with you that the Para 2 is the better knife. In my personal humble opinion that is

[Cynic2701]

Excellent post! You're absolutely not causing any problems, just formed an opinion, like Marthinus already stated. Maybe some Sebenza-fanboys got offended but I actually completely agree with your opinion. Especially since I am such a weirdo that can only carry folders tip-down! I really hate tip-up carry. Since you can't swap the pocketclip on a CRK, that's the first reason for me absolutely not wanting one. Secondly I don't like hollow grinds. Thirdly I take a Spydie hole (or a thumb disk) over a thumb stud any day of the week. So even when you could buy a Sebbie for 120 USD I still wouldn't buy one! And most definitely not for 3-400 USD! For half of that money I can get lifetime free sharpening and lifetime exchangeable no-questions-asked warranty from Zero Tolerance and I am allowed to take it apart. On top of that, I'm allowed to flick open my way cheaper Spydies and ZT's, while with CRK's that's called 'abuse' (WTF?!) So personally, for my taste, CRK folders are overpriced and there are no other options then hollow grind and tip-up carry. I don't care how tight CRK's tolerances are, they don't suit me or my wallet. And I agree with you that the Para 2 is the better knife. In my personal humble opinion that is

Can you please point me to the post where CRK tells you that flicking it is going to void the warranty?

[tp1l]

Looks like you're not at the "sebenza" point in your collecting yet... I've been an avid knife collector and user for years, and I just didn't "get" CRKs for the longest time. They just didn't make sense to me. I own a Benchmade 943, which I considered dang pricey for a while, and I could not fathom how a knife could be worth 2.5 osbornes.

Funny. I am at precisely this point in my collecting right now. I mean that literally. The 943 I got last Father's Day is my first and only "high end" knife, and while I have had to shift my definition of "high end" after too much lurking on this forum, I'm mostly still at the point where nothing(1) I've seen is worth 2.5 of this knife to me.

I figure the longer I go without ever handling a CRK, the happier my wallet will be. :-)

(1) I'll admit that my resolve is weakening with respect to Murray Carter's neck knives though.

[Jeru]

Looks like you're not at the "sebenza" point in your collecting yet...

No it's not that. I just hate tip-up carry and I don't like hollow grinds!

[Sonnydaze]

My Sebenzas are my favorite knives...period. My PM2's are my favorite knives...for the money.
There is a difference.

[Heiheit]

Wow, have some respect people.

[Jaytaylor]

Once upon a time best meant performance and reliability eg, Rolls Royce, Rolex and Ferrari. Now that they've been bested by Toyota' Casio and Nissan we now go for percieved superiority and snob appeal.

Quality, handmade and the pinacle of design Vs mass produced soulless items with the aesthetics of a caravan park.

[FCM415]

It is good to have variety and the Seb and PM2's are different knives that I thoroughly enjoy. No need for the "extra stuff", take it for what they are. If you don't like one or the other suggestion: do not buy! But live and let live.

[Jeru]

Can you please point me to the post where CRK tells you that flicking it is going to void the warranty?

CRK didn't tell me, but since I am not interested in owning a 400 USD hollow grind tip-up folder, I get my info from other knife nuts and CRK-owners on BF and Youtube

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...ranty-question

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...o-flick-policy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIrb7bf7RAY