SD knife as a striking weapon/kubotan: a perfect sd knife?

[GIRLYmann]

that perfect "something", will always be an on going work in progress
that is to say, there would always be some type of material or design "improvements".
having said that, a classic finger grooved buck folding hunter or ranger makes one good reason why classic heavy weighted brass models works with added advantage in the non lethal mode...

[OrdnanceBubbaUSMC]

I'd rather use a flashlight bezel for striking and use a knife for the blade. If you need to hit to create space and time to deploy a knife, hit with your offhand while deploying the blade.

Striking with a not so smooth part of handle or blade tang could open someone up and if a bystander/cop sees you with a knife they will assume you cut them and put the blade away. You are stating you felt your life was threatened by deploying a deadly weapon, whether you use the blade or use it as a palm stick.

For me instructors teaching to do so would be similar to firearm instructors teaching shoot for the knees, but since nobody (generally speaking) cares much about knives nobody who knows any better calls b.s. on it.

[psychophipps]

Just keep in mind that I have yet to see or hear of a single state that has separated closed blade knife use and deployed blade knife use into separate categories. With the vilification you see in cases where a knife was used in defense, there exists the potential for you to be charged for using a deadly weapon even if striking with a closed folder. Using a knife = lethal force, even if you're smacking them with the tool in a closed position, according to the laws as written.

Just so you know...

[mwerner]

Adding any weapon to an altercation ups the legal ante for sure. A "common" assault becomes an "aggravated" assault. However, if you are justified in using say, an impact weapon.... (larger, stronger opponent or whatever) Then you'd likely be OK.... Your attorney could point out your admirable restraint in not opening the knife.....

My CS Recon 1 would be a good candidate; it's only a 4" blade but it's a hefty folder and the grip is quite long enough to extend beyond the hand on both sides and sturdy enough to strike potent blows.
I use it as a "door knocker" all the time...

That being said, my limited experience with yawara-type short sticks has not been positive.

[Szilard]

That's bad legal advice, if you in fact hit someone with a knife, even if it a folder and it is closed, you are still utilizing the knife as a weapon. Thus, it is assault with a deadly weapon. This has some precedence before that you can find.

[singularity35]

That's a good heads up guys. I apologize for not being aware of your laws.

[s_f]

So what would be knives that fit this criteria? The overall lenght should be about 4 inches to have enough lenght in a closed position.

What do you mean by overall length?

I would suggest the Benchmade 810 Contego - I'm always amazed at how good it fits into the hand when it's closed and ready for using the glass breaker... (which I consider to be a glass breaker; not an impact weapon)

[strick284]

Yeah, I'm not pulling a knife on somebody unless it has come to the point where I have decided to kill the person who has attacked me. Open, closed, I doubt the court will care. You were using a knife on a person. I don't know how your laws are though. I would say carry a kubotan or a sturdy flashlight if you want to mess with impact weapons, pressure points, pain compliance, etc. I don't carry such things, but I don't practice martial arts or get in fights.

[HFinn]

I was not thinking about the legalities when asking those questions. Anyway, since many here are carrying firearms, knife can be less deadly than a firearm. A cut to a limb is scary to the attacker but less deadly than a bullet to the center of mass. And in less serious circumstanses, a good hit in the head area will stun the attacker, a painfull strike will take some of the fight away and give you time to retreat without the need to use the blade.

[mac_heath]

Anyway, since many here are carrying firearms, knife can be less deadly than a firearm.

A knife is a deadly weapon, putting it in the same legal category as firearms. Open or closed isn't going to make a difference. If I pistol-whip someone, it's still assault with a deadly weapon, even though they're very unlikely to die from such an assault. Cutting a limb is a life-threatening assault, no different than shooting to wound.

I'm not saying a knife is useless in defense. It has its place. But I think it's a mistake to consider it part of force escalation. It's at the top, along with a firearm. Furthermore, force escalation is a concept better-suited to police work. Civilians have the right to defend themselves. If they're in a situation where defense is warranted, defense with a deadly weapon is nearly always warranted.

[mworley13]

Spyderco police works great for this

[Nntrance]

Yojimbo 2 or Benchmade Bedlam End thread

[mac_heath]

The Spyderco Gunting does everything HFinn describes. It has several impact points, is easy to open, has a full-sized handle on a ~3" blade. I bought one years ago, and added a Survival Sheath Systems holster for it. The holster made for easy deployment, but I found that it caught on things (most often, my kids when they hugged me) and I abandoned it for more traditional knife designs. The Gunting didn't conceal any better than a fixed blade, and wasn't any faster to open than a folder.

It is a very solid folder, with good lockup. And I did love the way it felt in-hand.

[killgar]

If you should ever find yourself in the very unfortunate position of facing criminal charges, or being on trial, for the use of a weapon or for using any item as a weapon, I can assure you, if it is at all reasonably posible to kill someone with that weapon or item, the prosecuter will consider it a "deadly weapon" and you will be charged accordingly.

If you go to trial the prosecuter will have a police "expert", or a medical examiner, testify how you could have very easily caused the "victims" death with your "weapon".

Even if you were to stab someone with a pencil or throw a rock at someone, you could be charged with "assault with a deadly weapon", and even "attempted murder". Never expect the criminal justice system to perceieve your "weapon" the same way you do. What you consider to be a "non-lethal" alternative, the law may call a "deadly weapon". If an old man walking down the street were to use his cane to hit someone, a prosecuter could call that cane a "deadly weapon" and charge accordingly. Prosecuters always charge defendants with the most serious possible crimes that they reasonably can. Never underestimate how far a prosecuter will go to get a good conviction.

[HFinn]

Where I live (Europe) there was a case of a man defending himself against several assailants. He was carrying a knife for his protection and that is illegal here. Anyway it was a bad area. The man got in to a fight in a bar without his own fault, the assailants did not like his ethnicity. The fight continued outside and this was man attacked by several men, some wielding sticks. The defender stabbed and slashed them, one of the assailants died.

Judge ruled that he had the right to use a weapon against a deadly assault. The man was convicted of carrying a weapon in public, but was not guilty of manslaughter.

Anyway I was not thinking about the legal aspect and thank you guy's for brinking that to conversation. My thoughts were only on the tactical side.

[stabman]

My thoughts were only on the tactical side.

Being on the right side of the law is part of tactics...at least if you don't want to be in prison.
I don't want to be in prison.

[Dr Heelhook]

Not sure if Spyderco is the best for this particular use. The Spyderhole makes the blade stick out in closed position, making it not as comfortable to hold onto. You want a knife, where the blade is covered by the handle while closed. My best two knives for closed yawara/kubotan use are the CRKT folding Hissatsu and the Gerber Applegate/Fairbairn Covert folder. Rock solid grip while closed. I'm sure there are many other good examples too.

[HeavyHanded]

Where I live (Europe) there was a case of a man defending himself against several assailants. He was carrying a knife for his protection and that is illegal here. Anyway it was a bad area. The man got in to a fight in a bar without his own fault, the assailants did not like his ethnicity. The fight continued outside and this was man attacked by several men, some wielding sticks. The defender stabbed and slashed them, one of the assailants died.

Judge ruled that he had the right to use a weapon against a deadly assault. The man was convicted of carrying a weapon in public, but was not guilty of manslaughter.

Anyway I was not thinking about the legal aspect and thank you guy's for brinking that to conversation. My thoughts were only on the tactical side.

This is not unusual in the States either, use of force justified - weapon not legal, or not legal under the circumstances leading up to the incident. Unless you have prior convictions, any weapons offense (knife, stick) not involving an illegally obtained firearm are likely to be a misdemeanor. No walk in the park, but weapons charges piled on to a case where use of force was justified are frequently dropped (even DAs and ADAs have a limit to how much abuse they're willing to take for a non felony conviction). As always use your own judgement and if possible, do some homework on case outcomes in your neck of the woods.

[HFinn]

Being on the right side of the law is part of tactics...at least if you don't want to be in prison.
I don't want to be in prison.

You are quite right.

I just came across an old Benchmade Pika. Bought it for a dime. The knife is mediocre at best, but I will make a project out of it. It is not too uncomfortable to hold closed. I quess I will reshape the blade, shorten it and make a wharncliffe style tip. If it turns out that there is no sense I have not spent much money in this.

[mwerner]

Remember too... Although it's quite true many prosecutors are hot to charge someone with anything they can; very seldom does this carry through to the trial, even if it goes that far.
There will be a fair amount of dickering that goes on, and if you have a decent defense attorney he will be at pains to show how your state of mind and the viciousness of the attackers was such that you were more than justified in your actions.

That's of course, IF you can afford a decent attorney....

Also... With the current legal climate, lots of jurisdictions seriously don't want to put more people in jail. Everyone is worried about money, and if you have no prior record your chances of incarceration go way down.