Need help with age and maker of antique dagger

[kixonrt66]

Hello all,

I ran across this antique stag handled dagger and I would like some help with determining it's age and possibly a maker. The blade is beautifully etched but there is no maker's mark on the tang, front or rear. I am particularly interested in narrowing down the age of this knife. Pictures will have to provide the best information. Here she is:

















Many thanks for your help!

Kix

[Fixed Blade]

very nice Sheffield-made dagger you have. It's very similar to one I had marked Corsan, Denton & Burdekin that I know dated to around 1850. I'd put your's in that timeframe. Could be anyone of a number of Sheffield makers who made your knife. Amazing the etch has stayed so sharp after 150+ years but knife looks right to my eye.

Fb in VT.

[tltt]

Seen similar with Mason stamps too, I agree with the date, I'd go 1850's - 1860's.

[kixonrt66]

very nice Sheffield-made dagger you have. It's very similar to one I had marked Corsan, Denton & Burdekin that I know dated to around 1850. I'd put your's in that time frame. Could be anyone of a number of Sheffield makers who made your knife. Amazing the etch has stayed so sharp after 150+ years but knife looks right to my eye.

Fb in VT.

Thanks folks, I thought the 1850's-60's time frame might be correct but it's always valuable to have other opinions. I am amazed that the etch is still so clear also. The person that I bought this knife from said that it belonged to her grandfather in Delaware. She indicated that he had used it as a letter opener for many, many years and that he died over 30 years ago.
The fact that there is no maker's mark is a bit disappointing to me, but it is still a wonderful knife in my opinion, especially regarding the condition. It isn't often that you find a 150 year old knife in this condition.

Thanks for the input! I would appreciate any input Mr. Levine may have on this knife.

Kix

[bernard_levine]

Nice find...

I'd spread the range a little - mid 1840s to 1870s or early 1880s.

Unmarked + straight-sided handle suggests the latter end of that range.

What is the metal of the handle liners, between stag and tang. On older bowies that would be brass (the only brass ever used on Sheffield bowies) or nickel silver, usually with milled edges, like a dime. In the photo it looks like mild steel -- which is strange, and if so it is indeed a later knife.



BRL...

[kixonrt66]

Thank you Bernard, I appreciate the information! You are correct regarding the liners, they are indeed steel. I am quite pleased with the piece even if it is from the latter end of the range you suggest. It is still in very nice condition for an 1870's-1880's knife, especially the etching on the blade. I am curious about your statement regarding the straight sided handle and lack of a maker's mark indicating the latter end of the date range. Is the straight sided handle something that didn't appear or wasn't common until after 1860 or so? Is this also true of unmarked examples? I have also seen examples of these bolsters that are hollow and filled with lead. Was this a common practice when this knife was made?


Many Thanks,

Kix

[bernard_levine]

No, it is simply cost cutting in a shrinking market.

Ditto steel liners (which I have not seen on a bowie before).
Liners were needed to anchor the sheet metal 'bolsters,' but it saved a few farthings to use steel rather than brass.

BRL...

[kixonrt66]

No, it is simply cost cutting in a shrinking market.

Ditto steel liners (which I have not seen on a bowie before).
Liners were needed to anchor the sheet metal 'bolsters,' but it saved a few farthings to use steel rather than brass.

BRL...

Thank you Bernard! That makes sense. I'm not overly familiar with what the economy was like in Sheffield during this period, but in the first few years following the Civil War the economy in the US was at best unpredictable in the north and devastated in the south. I can imagine that import products like this were being squeezed by tariffs and the poor economy in the US. Certainly reason enough for manufacturers to try to save money on materials if possible.

Many Thanks,

Kix

[bernard_levine]

It had little to do with the economy or tariffs (which went up in 1891).

And everything to do with changing fashions.

The bowie fashion essentially ended in 1872, but it took a while for the news to spread (you can still buy them).
That is what I mean by a shrinking market. People bought other sorts of sidearms, such as cartridge revolvers.

BRL...

[Triton]

Okay admittedly I know nothing, but the thing I did notice is that the scales are a horrid fit at the "cross" to use my sword terminology. What's up with them being so thick there?

Also the "cross" appears to be pinned on but it looks like sloppy job, notice how the pin is not in line with the little decorative knobs and indeed appears to be overlapping one of them? Is that normal as well?

[bernard_levine]

You are right; you do know nothing.

Look at the stag from the face, not the edge. Note that it has no bald spots at the ends. That is or was the right way to cut stag.

On an older more expensive bowie, more care would have been taken to have the stag and the bolster come out closer to the same thickness.

But that is time consuming hand work, skipped on this knife to cut costs.

It was not displayed edge on, in the showcase from which it was sold.

Also the "cross" appears to be pinned on but it looks like sloppy job, notice how the pin is not in line with the little decorative knobs and indeed appears to be overlapping one of them? Is that normal as well?

Yes.

BRL...

[Triton]

You are right; you do know nothing.

Admittedly.

Look at the stag from the face, not the edge. Note that it has no bald spots at the ends. That is or was the right way to cut stag.

On an older more expensive bowie, more care would have been taken to have the stag and the bolster come out closer to the same thickness.

But that is time consuming hand work, skipped on this knife to cut costs.

So what you are saying is that this is the budget version?


You are saying that the sloppy pin placement is also normal.

Fair enough, I guess what I'm taking from this is that in this era just like any other there were high quality pieces and others that were less so. Some things never change I suppose.

[bernard_levine]

It's like some of the new hand-made knives one sees at shows now -- look good lying on the table, not so good when you pick one up.

BRL...

[Triton]

It's like some of the new hand-made knives one sees at shows now -- look good lying on the table, not so good when you pick one up.

BRL...

Yes, or worse on the internet. The pictures look fantastic, the reality in hand less so. I've saved a lot of money over the years waiting until I could get a knife in hand and "see" what it was really like rather then purchasing it off a website.

[kixonrt66]

"I've saved a lot of money over the years waiting until I could get a knife in hand and "see" what it was really like rather then purchasing it off a website."

Yes, one has to be careful with on-line auctions. However, I have bought some very good pieces from sellers who list auctions with poor photographs. It is a risk to be sure but if you do your homework and know what to look for, sometimes you can see indicators in blurry, poor photographs that other buyers miss. It goes back to what Mr. Levine always advises...READ THE KNIFE, pay little or no attention to what the seller says, or what the markings happen to say...READ THE KNIFE. I have found more high quality pieces and avoided many more questionable pieces by following this simple rule. Of course, to do this well one must get an education through books and especially from examining a LOT of knives, both genuine and fake to learn to know what to look for. The handle scales on this piece do look a bit thick at the bolsters, but stag is one of those materials that changes as it ages. It changes in color, especially at the cut edges that expose the interior surface of the antler. The outer surface has many variations in texture, color and also changes with time. Stag is cut in many ways and newer knives almost always have stag that is thick...thicker that the handle slabs that were used 100 years ago. The pins used to attach the stag can tell a lot about a knife, in how they are applied and what they are made of.
There is no substitute for looking at a LOT of knives at knife shows and even museums. Pay no attention to what sellers say, they just want to sell their goods and will make up the most incredible stories. Look at PROVEN examples to learn about construction, materials and methods. READ, READ, READ!!! There are excellent volumes on this subject (BRL's Guide to Knives and their Values is one of the best). Buy yourself some knife books and leave them on the back of the toilet. You'd be surprised how much reading time you can spend on the throne of knowledge.

Kix

[Triton]

"I've saved a lot of money over the years waiting until I could get a knife in hand and "see" what it was really like rather then purchasing it off a website."

Yes, one has to be careful with on-line auctions. However, I have bought some very good pieces from sellers who list auctions with poor photographs. It is a risk to be sure but if you do your homework and know what to look for, sometimes you can see indicators in blurry, poor photographs that other buyers miss. It goes back to what Mr. Levine always advises...READ THE KNIFE, pay little or no attention to what the seller says, or what the markings happen to say...READ THE KNIFE. I have found more high quality pieces and avoided many more questionable pieces by following this simple rule. Of course, to do this well one must get an education through books and especially from examining a LOT of knives, both genuine and fake to learn to know what to look for. The handle scales on this piece do look a bit thick at the bolsters, but stag is one of those materials that changes as it ages. It changes in color, especially at the cut edges that expose the interior surface of the antler. The outer surface has many variations in texture, color and also changes with time. Stag is cut in many ways and newer knives almost always have stag that is thick...thicker that the handle slabs that were used 100 years ago. The pins used to attach the stag can tell a lot about a knife, in how they are applied and what they are made of.
There is no substitute for looking at a LOT of knives at knife shows and even museums. Pay no attention to what sellers say, they just want to sell their goods and will make up the most incredible stories. Look at PROVEN examples to learn about construction, materials and methods. READ, READ, READ!!! There are excellent volumes on this subject (BRL's Guide to Knives and their Values is one of the best). Buy yourself some knife books and leave them on the back of the toilet. You'd be surprised how much reading time you can spend on the throne of knowledge.

Kix

I absolutely agree with all of that. I should stipulate, I don't collect antique knives, I was referring to production knives that look very sexy on the internet but turn out to be beasts in hand. Also, please forgive me for perhaps suggesting that this wasn't a good buy or anything like that, this was certainly not my intent. I just noticed some things that I wouldn't accept in a modern made knife and wondered if they were acceptable in an antique. The answer is of course, "well yes, to a segment of the market" both then and for collectors now. This is of course the same today. Just because I wouldn't buy a Strider because I think that their fit and finish are awful doesn't mean that there isn't a market for them, obviously there is and many people are very happy with them.

[kixonrt66]

Hello Triton,

No offense taken friend, your questions were valid and correct. This is how we learn, by asking questions, preferably of people who have experience. the handle scales on my knife are a bit awkward in the way that you mentioned, I noticed it myself. Your comments about newer knives that look good in pictures and not so good in the hand are also correct. i think this is why BRL has some specific instructions regarding pictures that are posted on this forum with questions. there are lots of ways to make knives look like something they are not with weird angles, lighting and other photographic hocus pocus. We are all students of this knife collecting discipline and the learning never stops. Those who think they know it all are mistaken, they do not. None of us do. No matter how much you have read or seen or learned there will always be something that will surprise you in knife collecting.

Keep asking questions those questions...all of us learn from them.

Kix

[kixonrt66]

Nice find...

I'd spread the range a little - mid 1840s to 1870s or early 1880s.

Unmarked + straight-sided handle suggests the latter end of that range.

What is the metal of the handle liners, between stag and tang. On older bowies that would be brass (the only brass ever used on Sheffield bowies) or nickel silver, usually with milled edges, like a dime. In the photo it looks like mild steel -- which is strange, and if so it is indeed a later knife.



BRL...

Hello Bernard,

I was visiting a friend and fellow knife collector a few days ago and I mentioned to him your comment regarding having never seen steel liners on a genuine 1850's- 1880's Bowie. He dug into his vast collection and actually found a knife with bolsters similar to mine that also has mild steel liners. I still agree with your age estimate of 1880's on my knife and it is probably accurate for my friends knife as well. The handle of his knife is also stag, but it is somewhat curved on the sides, not straight sided. The blade of his knife is a single edged spear point. I thought it interesting to find another knife of this period with steel liners.

Kix

[Cougar Allen]

Um ... what do we actually know here? We know the knife looks similar to you, and it has steel liners. Whether it's a knife of that period is another question. Can you post pictures of that knife?

[bernard_levine]

I thought it interesting to find another knife of this period with steel liners.

Often one will not see a thing until one looks for it.

Then one will see it everywhere.

*

"The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend." - Henri Bergson

We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are. -- Anais Nin

you can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus. -- Mark Twain, Connecticut Yankee

We define first, and then see. -- Walter Lippmann

“The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeing new landscapes, but in having new eyes”. - Marcel Proust

'Who you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?' - Chico Marx, Duck Soup

When you go to buy, use your eyes, not your ears. -- Czech Proverb


And to turn those last two around, Politicians and teachers expect you to believe what they tell you, not what you see and experience.

*

Monday: Here's something on eBay I have never seen before.

Tuesday: Here's another one.

Wednesday: And another...

And then, you won't see another one for the next seven years.

BRL...