I can't blame them a bit. I screwed up pretty big when i put that thin a profile on the tip
The above is a video from cliff talking about the minimum edge angle you can do before the knife starts to take on damage from normal use. He keeps his chopping knives between 12 and 15 degree's per side (15 being for winter use on hard frozen woods 0_0). It's not a directly usable example for what your talking about (hard use) but it is a good description of how you can push the limits of a steel and get the most out of it performance wise while keeping major damage and failure in check.
This is what I tend to set my INFI at. Busse kin in general has gotten better with their angles, it's no longer 35-40 degree's per side on the stock edge. My 1311 was 21 per side on the straight edge and 36 per side at the tip, which isnt bad, but they tend to be thick right behind the edge and can benefit from a releif bevel.
Cliff's example on the knife shown in the video is the last one in my image, but with a more acute microbevel (apex bevel in his terms). He is also regrinding everything, not just the edge, but for our purposes we can assume that if your going to do 10-15 degree's per side your going to be regrinding most of the knife away anyways. To me theres no reason to let INFI go above .035" thick behind the edge. It's strong enough that unless your going to be chopping truck springs with it it can handle a lot of shock force at that thickness. Anything below .020" right behind the edge and you start getting into INFI's weak territory. By 'weak' I don't mean bad performance at all - just the area where a much harder steel (d2 at 60rc) would retain it's form a little better. The thinner the edge the more INFI's maleability works against it, since there isn't enough backing metal to keep the rolls, dents and mashes from going higher into the edge/knife. INFI is still strong when thin, but it's less able to stay rigid and aligned than if it had more backing material or copared to other harder steels. In another steel at high hardness (58-60rc) you are more likely to have a chip that eats up a lot of the edge though, where INFI will deform and be more likely to be able to be steeled back.
Push the limits, but be away that the thinnest busse has ever let out of it's shop on a stock production model is around .020" thick behind the edge, and that was on the CABS. I consider that the benchmark for busse where when you go thinner you start to push some of it's abilities. It's where the game of chicken starts with performance vs. edge stability. A worthwhile game, you just have to pay attention to your edge more as your working with it.
I can't blame them a bit. I screwed up pretty big when i put that thin a profile on the tip
Weird, I've seen them warranty much stupider damage. Interesting. Do you have any pics or whatnot of how much you thinned out the tip?
I don't have any pics, but Jerry himself made the call. I spoke with him this morning, and he said that his warranty doesn't cover modifications that cause failure
It's a perfectly reasonable decision. I caused the failure, so it doesn't seem unreasonable that I have to pay for the damage i'm responsible for.
As best i can figure, the tip was thinned down to about 20 degrees inclusive because of the way the WE was set up. There's nothing about the TGLB that caused the failure other than the fact that steel... any steel, just can't handle being impacted with a rock with a 20 degree edge
The folks at Busse were incredibly polite, and I don't have anything bad to say about them
Last edited by BePrepared; 11-14-2012 at 12:04 PM.
Nice that you got a call from the big man. I also didn't realise it was so thinned down at the edge, or that you'd hit a rock. I have only skimmed through this thread periodically..
It's a bit depressing that it's not covered since i thought originally that EVERYTHING was covered except intentional destruction, but I have no one to blame for this but me
No one made me reprofile my blade, so it's reasonable to expect that i'll be the one who has to pay for it
Once it comes back from the shop, it will be a LBTG variant grind. how are you getting it reground?
i actually don't know that. Jerry just said that he was going to hand it over to Garth and have him do what it took to fix it. Since it's clearly not usable now, I gave the go ahead.
Hopefully it won't lose TOO much length. That's the thing i'm most worried about
i will tell you when i know.
Right now all i know is that they're charging me based on how long it takes to fix it. Hopefully it won't be TOO crazy. I wasn't expecting it to cost me anything when i sent it in, so i wasn't really prepared for a big bill
Thats to bad. Makes me wish there warranty was like Esee and Bark River. You thin out the edge to make it a better slicer and if it breaks, it gets fixed or replaced free
here is what Busse warranty says directly from the man himself and as you can see mods are done at your own risk. If you had broke it hammering it with a hammer and it had no mods, it would have been covered, but when you reground it, it must have been considered a major mod and I guess that is not covered.
HERE is how Busse warranty covers ridiculous abuse:
Pretty sure this is the part that got me
Specifically, if you have modifications done to your knife, outside of our shop, and the modifications adversely affect the integrity and/or performance of your knife, causing it to fail, then it should be noted that “OUR” warranty will not cover “YOUR” modifications. We will, however, continue to cover the parts of your knife that are left unaffected by your modification. For example: If you have mastodon ivory grips put on your Steel Heart II by someone outside of our shop, then our warranty will continue to cover everything except the ivory grips. So be careful. BEFORE you have any modifications done to your knife, make sure that the person doing the modification will guarantee their workmanship.
You said it lost ~1/4", maybe a little more? I wonder how thick it was at the break... It broke within the sharpened area? If your sharpening-job reprofiled the apex so low, it's possible that they could simply blend the tip-angle back into the blade removing as little metal as possible to get it to 30 dps there. I'm not sure I understand at what point sharpening qualifies as '"YOUR" modifications' and voids the warranty 0_o. Then again, if the break occurred within the sharpened bevel, that might qualify as "normal wear". INFI's material properties are supposed to be quite impressive, but I am not sure how one would determine if '"YOUR" modifications' were insufficient to compromise the expected performance of the steel. How hard did you hit that rock? Why didn't the tip bend before breaking? Or am I misunderstanding the damage?
There is one thing that I believe should come from this thread. What does Busse consider modification?
Let me start by saying, I do not expect my knives to be covered after I modify them on my grinder and I take the warranty into my own hands. I always have and always will. I never once asked Jerry to fix my mistakes free of charge. I actually learned to fix them myself.
Now with that said, what angle would Busse say would all the sudden become a modification of the edge? I don't blame Jerry a bit for drawing lines. I think he should actually. When I was more active here I remember seeing Jerry replace knives I thought he was crazy to do it for. I never took advantage of the company myself though.
So what I am getting at is should folks be afraid to buy a busse and take the factory edge down to 15 per side on and edgepro or stone because it will become a modification? Wow, that would put me off to the company if so. I do not believe that is the case here though. I believe what was done to this knife may have greatly exceeded what most would reprofile an edge to. If Busse now means you have to keep the factory edge, well thats no knife at all IMHO, thats closer to owning a paperweight in some cases.
Again, with all of this said, every time I have seen Jerry make a call that it was 'modification error' it was a pretty insanely thinned out edge.
I hope this little hiccup does not turn into a mess. I would just be happy that Jerry and Garth will fix my mistakes. I hope this works out for both sides. Jerry should not receive grief because he has always been overly generous with his warranty IMHO. Nor should a customer have to be afraid to sharpen their knife by hand without power tools within reasonable limits.
Last edited by richstag; 11-15-2012 at 06:42 PM.
i hit the rock pretty hard. I was stabbing the crap out of the board when it went through. It broke clean off, so i don't know why it didn't bend.
I am going to just take Jerry's word for this one. He's a stand up guy, and i think that he'd have absolutely no trouble fixing it on his dime if he wasn't absolutely satisfied that my "modification" was solely responsible.
This is an interesting development. It may the first time we have heard of Jerry declining to cover damage. But I agree with you; you can't blame him, and he is not being unreasonable. Over the last few years there has been an increased number of posts around modding or reprofiling knives, along with a general belief that it's all good, and Busse will cover it. I, and others, have tried to remind folk that if you mod it, then you should consider that you own your own warranty, and need to rely on the strength of INFI and some common sense, NOT the unbounded generosity of Jerry Busse.
I have been thinking about the Unintentional Warranty which covers everything except if you deliberately tried to break the knife. Im pretty sure he reprofiled it so it would be a better slicer. He didnt think it would damage the blade. Therefore wouldnt that be called unintentional damage
All I will say is; I believe Jerry will do what he feels is right, and you can include Dan in that as well. The Bussekin warranty is by far the best in my book.
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