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Thread: Law Of the Sharks, Rules, Tips, and Tricks

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bear71 View Post
    It's a tough one. It's great that Andy's knives are getting the attention they deserve, but even I as a relative (12 month) newbie am amazed how the frenzy has escalated! The saving grace is that a lot of the knives get recycled and I've made some great contacts through trading/buying on the exchange or flea market. I've learnt a lot from the older heads here. That said, aaaaaaaghhhh I missed out again����
    The flea market is definitely a great addition to the forum, for selling, trading, or buying. Not nearly so much sharking there, though I do remember will snagging one in the same minute it posted lol. Man that dude is quick!
    “A sane person to an insane society must appear insane.” ~Kurt Vonnegut


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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistwalker View Post
    The flea market is definitely a great addition to the forum, for selling, trading, or buying. Not nearly so much sharking there, though I do remember will snagging one in the same minute it posted lol. Man that dude is quick!
    Indeed, an inspiration to us all😊
    "Why put off until tomorrow that which can be put off until next week"

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistwalker View Post
    The flea market is definitely a great addition to the forum, for selling, trading, or buying. Not nearly so much sharking there, though I do remember will snagging one in the same minute it posted lol. Man that dude is quick!
    Mist, I think you'll agree that the aspect that can irritate a little is the feeling that the knives aren't necessarily being bought to use. I'm guilty sometimes of buying a "got to have it" blade which I'll often recycle because I can't see me using it. I love that Andy refers to his products as tools and although they are works of art, if they're not bought to get dirty then what's the point.
    "Why put off until tomorrow that which can be put off until next week"

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by bear71 View Post
    Mist, I think you'll agree that the aspect that can irritate a little is the feeling that the knives aren't necessarily being bought to use. I'm guilty sometimes of buying a "got to have it" blade which I'll often recycle because I can't see me using it. I love that Andy refers to his products as tools and although they are works of art, if they're not bought to get dirty then what's the point.
    Well, in a way it seems a little sad that so many knives in general go unused, and with a lot knives by makers of high quality knives over the years; Randall, Loveless, Lile, Wood, Reeve, Harsey, etc. I've yet to meet a maker of well made knives who didn't love to see his knives being used. It's a matter of pride for the maker. I use all my knives, at least some, and the closest I have to safe queens are just knives I don't use as often or as hard. I'm a knife person, I love to cook. I love the outdoors, and I love to experiment. I also enjoy designing the occasional knife... so yeah, I use knives a lot. But I have known a lot of collectors, and they have taught me a lot about various aspects of knives and knife design over the years. Most have their "users" and their "safe queens" and many have "users" I only wish I could afford. Either way, I have no more business telling them what they should do with their purchases than anyone has of telling me what I should do with mine. To each their own.
    “A sane person to an insane society must appear insane.” ~Kurt Vonnegut


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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistwalker View Post
    Well, in a way it seems a little sad that so many knives in general go unused, and with a lot knives by makers of high quality knives over the years; Randall, Loveless, Lile, Wood, Reeve, Harsey, etc. I've yet to meet a maker of well made knives who didn't love to see his knives being used. It's a matter of pride for the maker. I use all my knives, at least some, and the closest I have to safe queens are just knives I don't use as often or as hard. I'm a knife person, I love to cook. I love the outdoors, and I love to experiment. I also enjoy designing the occasional knife... so yeah, I use knives a lot. But I have known a lot of collectors, and they have taught me a lot about various aspects of knives and knife design over the years. Most have their "users" and their "safe queens" and many have "users" I only wish I could afford. Either way, I have no more business telling them what they should do with their purchases than anyone has of telling me what I should do with mine. To each their own.
    I suppose you're right mate, in hindsight I didn't mean to suggest that owning/accumulating knives without using them was a crime in itself, it was more a reaction to the idea of snapping up knives in panic mode just to own one from a maker without really having a desire for that particular knife - l also have learnt a lot from others who are great collectors and value their knowledge
    "Why put off until tomorrow that which can be put off until next week"

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Skystorm View Post
    Otherwise I am just going to start posting "I'll take everything that's left" and then just sell what I don't want.

    Posts that don't offer the complete description with the I'll take it should be invalid.
    Hi all I don't post much here but I am always watching. lol
    I use Tapatalk and it is not possible on my phone to copy and paste the entire description , at best it would be "I'll take the woodsman please" or "can I please have 2014 0221 022" It is the only way I feel I could ever have a shot at obtaining one of Andy's knives.
    By the way here in Australia it's called Fiddleback Saturday.
    See you in the tank.

  7. #47
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    I have to agree with most of the latest post. I love the fact that Andy is selling his blades fast but it has become somewhat "manic" on fridays.
    Still come here to look every friday though and no way im selling my ff blades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crano View Post
    Hi all I don't post much here but I am always watching. lol
    I use Tapatalk and it is not possible on my phone to copy and paste the entire description , at best it would be "I'll take the woodsman please" or "can I please have 2014 0221 022" It is the only way I feel I could ever have a shot at obtaining one of Andy's knives.
    By the way here in Australia it's called Fiddleback Saturday.
    See you in the tank.
    3-14 was the first FF that I have participated in using an iPhone, and it was the first time I used "I'll take the ..." I concur that copy/paste would result in no knives due to the cumbersome nature required to accomplish it. I, for one, have to say that my 1.5 months of participating in FF has been a blast. Probably the best time that I have had all winter, sans playing with my new grand baby.

    This is Andy's show, and it is up to Andy to set, and to enforce, the rules of engagement. BF does have a post a minute rule (I learned this for the first time on Friday) so there might be a slight advantage to double posts, but it does take longer to find, copy and past two descriptions, increasing the probability that the one you really want is sharked.

    I am the new guy here, and I have accumulated a lot of Fiddleback Forge knives in a short period of time. But I have to say, a majority of these have been in the secondary market. I hear a lot about "the good old days." I wonder how much Andy was struggling to feed his family back then when there would be FF knives sitting for days and then sent to dealers? Is there really a problem here? If there is a problem, I would think that it is a bit of a luxury problem for Andy. I am not saying that it does not need to be solved, all problems, luxury or otherwise, need to be solved. But I have had a great time in the past few Fridays, making it my favorite day of the week. Of the knives that I have picked up in the past 1.5 months on FFs, two are ones that I would consider competitive, and feel that I truly sharked. The remainder were ones that were not getting that much attention, and were acquired because my collection was empty. I have a requirement for a specific number of knives for an upcoming project, so I snagged some that way.

    I have had a wonderful time here over the past 6 weeks. I would hate to see anything happen to FF such that it goes away. But again that would be Andy's decision, and if that happens, I will forever remember the fond times I had in the shark tank with you all.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by McVeyMac View Post
    3-14 was the first FF that I have participated in using an iPhone, and it was the first time I used "I'll take the ..." I concur that copy/paste would result in no knives due to the cumbersome nature required to accomplish it. I, for one, have to say that my 1.5 months of participating in FF has been a blast. Probably the best time that I have had all winter, sans playing with my new grand baby.

    This is Andy's show, and it is up to Andy to set, and to enforce, the rules of engagement. BF does have a post a minute rule (I learned this for the first time on Friday) so there might be a slight advantage to double posts, but it does take longer to find, copy and past two descriptions, increasing the probability that the one you really want is sharked.

    I am the new guy here, and I have accumulated a lot of Fiddleback Forge knives in a short period of time. But I have to say, a majority of these have been in the secondary market. I hear a lot about "the good old days." I wonder how much Andy was struggling to feed his family back then when there would be FF knives sitting for days and then sent to dealers? Is there really a problem here? If there is a problem, I would think that it is a bit of a luxury problem for Andy. I am not saying that it does not need to be solved, all problems, luxury or otherwise, need to be solved. But I have had a great time in the past few Fridays, making it my favorite day of the week. Of the knives that I have picked up in the past 1.5 months on FFs, two are ones that I would consider competitive, and feel that I truly sharked. The remainder were ones that were not getting that much attention, and were acquired because my collection was empty. I have a requirement for a specific number of knives for an upcoming project, so I snagged some that way.

    I have had a wonderful time here over the past 6 weeks. I would hate to see anything happen to FF such that it goes away. But again that would be Andy's decision, and if that happens, I will forever remember the fond times I had in the shark tank with you all.
    Of course it's Andy's show. It always has been. Andy also appreciates input and "suggestions" for his business. I haven't seen anybody suggest Fiddleback Friday go away. The "suggestions" have been to gently tweak the format to create an even playing field for MORE people. I also don't think by making small adjustments in the format, to allow additional members to purchase, will cause " I wonder how much Andy was struggling to feed his family back then when there would be FF knives sitting for days and then sent to dealers". That was a different era for Andy. It was a growing period for Fiddleback Forge. I was here and watched it. The buyer numbers weren't here yet. Today there are well over 100 potential buyers each week logged on! That wasn't here years ago. If anything tweaking the format brings in additional NEW customers that are becoming frustrated because they aren't able to purchase, often directly due to others volume buying. I love to see the new guy here so excited to obtain his FIRST Fiddleback. I just don't like to see so many potential buyers having no chance because the knives are purchased in a group buy fashion.
    Dave

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorD View Post
    If anything tweaking the format brings in additional NEW customers that are becoming frustrated because they aren't able to purchase, often directly due to others volume buying. I love to see the new guy here so excited to obtain his FIRST Fiddleback. I just don't like to see so many potential buyers having no chance because the knives are purchased in a group buy fashion.
    Well said.

    I don't think there's a problem...but I don't think anyone's going to be happy with the way this is trending. This is slowly pushing towards a secondary market. Fridays are going to be who can post "I'll take them all" the fastest in order to then resell them (at some kind of mark up). How fast are the resellers running out of them? If I sold knives online I'd shop here every friday.

    I think you can keep the high level of excitement of fridays up, while spreading out opportunity, enforcing common sense rules AND reducing Andy's work on identifying and then shipping the winnings.

    Just use the 'buy it now' buttons on paypal:

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  11. #51
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    Solid suggestions that would level the playing field for all. Would love to see these adopted, along with a limited to no commentary on the FB Friday posts for at least the first hour.

    Knives would still sell out no doubt but there will more order/posting standard to the Friday frenzy with everyone on the same page. Also it could potentially give a greater chance that more knives will get into hands other than the "old school" crowd, collectors and new regulars. That means more business, more word of mouth. I'm also sure some posting standards would make it a hell of a lot simpler for the FB crew to sort through all of the knives spoken for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skystorm View Post
    copy and paste the entire description of what they want.

    (2014 0314 002 – Wasp, Model Standard Knife, Maroon Linen on natural canvas with a white g10 pinstripe, Tapered Tang, Convex on 1/8” thick 3D Spalted 01 steel - $295)

    Also I am not a fan of the dragnet fishing, " I want the Duke, if not then the Hunter if not then the Wasp and so on". That makes it extremely difficult for those after that post to figure out what has or has not been taken.
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorD View Post
    I would love to see a single purchase limit per post placed on every buyer. You want a 2nd knife then post again..

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorD View Post
    Of course it's Andy's show. It always has been. Andy also appreciates input and "suggestions" for his business. I haven't seen anybody suggest Fiddleback Friday go away. The "suggestions" have been to gently tweak the format to create an even playing field for MORE people. I also don't think by making small adjustments in the format, to allow additional members to purchase, will cause " I wonder how much Andy was struggling to feed his family back then when there would be FF knives sitting for days and then sent to dealers". That was a different era for Andy. It was a growing period for Fiddleback Forge. I was here and watched it. The buyer numbers weren't here yet. Today there are well over 100 potential buyers each week logged on! That wasn't here years ago. If anything tweaking the format brings in additional NEW customers that are becoming frustrated because they aren't able to purchase, often directly due to others volume buying. I love to see the new guy here so excited to obtain his FIRST Fiddleback. I just don't like to see so many potential buyers having no chance because the knives are purchased in a group buy fashion.
    This is very true. I have only been following Fiddleback for about 3 months or so now. I have been Lucky enough to get one of his knives I wanted. It was my 2nd purchase. My first purchase was a left over hiking buddy that I picked up just to see if Fiddleback knives were for me and if it was worth the game we have here on Fridays. There are still 2 knives I would love to have from Fiddleback but I see my chances of getting one of these to be little to none, but I am still trying. There is just no way I can sit in front of a computer or on my phone and hit the refresh button waiting for the Friday thread to pop up.

    I had 2 buddies of mine very interested in these knives also, both tried for a few Fridays and decided that it was not worth their time to get in on the frenzy. This is a big problem IMO. You always want to expand your customer base and while this was just 2 potential customers, they have friends also....

    Now don't get me wrong, I love seeing a small business do good, I just agree a few tweaks would be good for both sides.

  13. #53
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    That is exactly one of the problems. I promote Andy's work whenever I have the chance. From my site, to our facebook page or locally to people I know, I have many people who would love to have one or a dozen but simply do not have the time to refresh all day on a friday and then have everything bought up in a couple posts. From experience, I know that when a buyer wants to purchase something but becomes too frustrated or can't figure out the system they will just move on to something else. There are many people who do not like to buy second hand, that first one is special and just for them.

    I am more than happy for Andy's success, It equals more knives for all of us. Just some minor tweaks to be made I think. I still feel that a copy/paste of the entire description would be helpful to both sides. If you spend time waiting for the pics to show up on fotki then you can usually get an idea of what is coming and just copy/paste/ 'Duke' Woodsman' etc. as soon as the thread appears. That gives absolutely no one a chance to even quick-look through the thread for something.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaxE View Post
    I had 2 buddies of mine very interested in these knives also, both tried for a few Fridays and decided that it was not worth their time to get in on the frenzy. This is a big problem IMO. You always want to expand your customer base and while this was just 2 potential customers, they have friends also....

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorD View Post
    If anything tweaking the format brings in additional NEW customers that are becoming frustrated because they aren't able to purchase, often directly due to others volume buying. I love to see the new guy here so excited to obtain his FIRST Fiddleback. I just don't like to see so many potential buyers having no chance because the knives are purchased in a group buy fashion.
    That's a lot of what I was thinking too. And it's not just newer customers. Mostly newer ones yes, but some of the older supporters of this forum have mentioned not being able to get in on purchasing anymore. Especially some in other parts of the world where they have to be up at odd hours to get in on FF. But yes, it's Andy's show. He built this company from scratch and has done an awesome job with it. I am really glad to have been able to watch Fiddleback Forge grow the way it has, and I couldn't be happier for him. How/if he wants to handle this is his choice alone, but I agree some slight tweaking may be in order, to suit the demands of the new growth.Obviously he cannot please everyone, he has a hand made knife business, and can only make so many knives in a week. With thirty knives being looked over by one hundred plus people, clearly some people are going to miss out every week. That can not be helped. I am very grateful that Andy has his model set up the way it is, much better than taking orders and developing a four or five year wait list like some makers. I don't care who makes the knife, I'm not waiting four years, I'll spend my money on something I can get, use, and appreciate much sooner. Hell, I could be killed in an accident or any number of other ways in four or five years. But I do fear the frustration of individuals who work for a living, who risk trouble at work trying to get in on Fiddleback Friday for weeks on end, but continually meeting with failure will just drive them away. The constantly being beaten out in the shark pool by dealers or purveyors who buy and sell knives for a living, and have all the time in the world to devote to purchases they can make a profit on, has to leave a bitter taste in the mouth for some, and may very well lead to a sour grapes attitude and resentment. The original premise was that individual supporters could have first choice and buy them here in the forum, and those that didn't sell here went to the dealer network. But then Andy's popularity grew, and there stopped being many available for dealers. The demand has gotten high, and those that can afford it are just sitting by their computers and waiting, then grabbing three at a time, knowing they can flip them for a profit. I'm not saying that flipping for a profit is a bad thing, hell it's great, it keeps Andy's market up where it belongs for this quality of work. I just can't see how cutting out all of the individuals who scrape up their pennies for that one Fiddleback they want to carry and use in the process could be a good thing over the long term. I think if Andy wants to maintain that premise of individuals coming first, then some limits will need to be put in place. At this point, the frenzy has gotten so crazy that if it continues on this track people will be snagging five or six at a time to flip, and then most of the little guys lose out to those with the buying power. To me a lot of the draw to Fiddleback is the personal connection with Andy and his knives, and I am glad to have gotten to experience that. At this rate, that is something many in the future will miss out on, and that seems a shame. But maybe that's just growing pains of a business? Maybe with the level and skill that Andy has, it was just inevitable that he would eventually outgrow the forum? Or at least outgrow Fiddleback Friday as we knew it? It does seem sad, and like the end of an era to me. But maybe that's just the nature of the beast for a successful company? I love Andy to pieces, and love his knives. I know what he puts into them. I know that I will continue to support his company as long as he stays true to his commitment to uncompromising quality and style that he has continually developed over the years. I just think we have reached a point where things have become tense from the uncertainty, and we just need to wait and see where Andy wants it to go from here. He is a smart business man, as well as a skilled craftsman. He has to make the best decision for the preservation of his company as he sees it. Ideally, I would love to see a mid tech line added that kept the styles and quality in a user knife, but at a lower cost than 100% made by hand. Maybe that could up his weekly production and more easily satisfy the needs of his growing market. I know many prefer the all hand made. But as long as the knife has Andy's design, handle ergonomics, and quality controls stay the same, I couldn't care less if the blank was cut on a water jet if all I am going to do is use it anyway. Maybe there are others who feel the same way, and this would be one option for growth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorD View Post
    Of course it's Andy's show. It always has been. Andy also appreciates input and "suggestions" for his business. I haven't seen anybody suggest Fiddleback Friday go away. The "suggestions" have been to gently tweak the format to create an even playing field for MORE people. I also don't think by making small adjustments in the format, to allow additional members to purchase, will cause " I wonder how much Andy was struggling to feed his family back then when there would be FF knives sitting for days and then sent to dealers". That was a different era for Andy. It was a growing period for Fiddleback Forge. I was here and watched it. The buyer numbers weren't here yet. Today there are well over 100 potential buyers each week logged on! That wasn't here years ago. If anything tweaking the format brings in additional NEW customers that are becoming frustrated because they aren't able to purchase, often directly due to others volume buying. I love to see the new guy here so excited to obtain his FIRST Fiddleback. I just don't like to see so many potential buyers having no chance because the knives are purchased in a group buy fashion.
    Hey Dave, I did not mean to suggest that tweaking the format would result in a return to the days when FF Friday knives would go unsold. I, in no way, think that that is the case. I am not even suggesting that the format should not be tweaked to allow the new buyer a fair shot at his/her first Fiddleback. As I stated, even luxury problems need to be solved. I personally would support instituting all of the common sense tweaks that you speak of. One post, one knife, for example. With the one post a minute rule, this will spread the love around for sure.

    Perhaps I am ignorant as to what is going on, but I have not seen some of the higher volume buyers selling their knives on the secondary market (at least on the flea market here) in the same volume that they are buying. I have not looked for it on fleabay, but it does not seem to be happening here (I have not researched it, so I could be wrong). If it is occurring for profit, then by all means it should be addressed and tweaking the process is in order, assuming that is in line with Andy's business model. Andy can only make so many knives in the way that he makes them. That is why they are special. I have bought some knives that I have paid up for a little bit in the secondary market (flea market or networking with you all) but not so much that the seller made any money to speak of. Most new knives that I purchased on the secobary market were sold at, or very close to, Andy prices or slightly above to cover expenses. If I want a Randall made knife, the cheapest way to obtain it is to order it from Randall. But, I have to wait five years. If I want one next week, I have to pay a significant up charge to a dealer, or private seller, to obtain one.

    I can certainly support tweaking the program to allow for more fairness, especially for the new buyer. But reading through the threads, I definitely got the impression from those of you that have been around from the beginning that you were longing for those "good old days." I was simply pointing out that those days probably were quite a struggle for Andy, and that he probably likes these days better. Primary markets, secondary markets and the pricing for each is a function of supply and demand. If Andy's knives are selling on a secondary market for 20% more than they are on a primary market, then one could argue that Andy is charging 20% too little. Or is he? I have a job where I can participate on Friday. I usually have to work on Saturday in order to participate, but many do not have that luxury. They might be willing to pay 20% more in a secondary market, either dealer or private. Perhaps I need a $550.00 Randall in two years, and it takes five to get it. I might be willing to pay $750 or $950 to get it next week. These decisions are clearly Andy's to make. I know that I love Fiddleback Fridays, and I will support whetever he wants to do with it.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by McVeyMac View Post
    I can certainly support tweaking the program to allow for more fairness, especially for the new buyer. But reading through the threads, I definitely got the impression from those of you that have been around from the beginning that you were longing for those "good old days." I was simply pointing out that those days probably were quite a struggle for Andy, and that he probably likes these days better. Primary markets, secondary markets and the pricing for each is a function of supply and demand. If Andy's knives are selling on a secondary market for 20% more than they are on a primary market, then one could argue that Andy is charging 20% too little. Or is he? I have a job where I can participate on Friday. I usually have to work on Saturday in order to participate, but many do not have that luxury. They might be willing to pay 20% more in a secondary market, either dealer or private. Perhaps I need a $550.00 Randall in two years, and it takes five to get it. I might be willing to pay $750 or $950 to get it next week. These decisions are clearly Andy's to make. I know that I love Fiddleback Fridays, and I will support whetever he wants to do with it.
    Pretty sure none of us want to see the days where there would still be knives available on Monday come back. Back hen I think Andy struggled with the idea of returning to the work force, and I am soooo glad that didn't happen and Fiddleback Forge continued to grow. I think the knife world needed Fiddleback Forge very badly. I think those of us who have been around for a while have seen where Andy needed to tweak the model a little to reduce the stress level, and are just looking for and offering suggestions that might help. Just getting and giving feedback from our perspective from the outside looking in.
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  17. #57
    The greatest solution is more knives! Midtec or greater workforce. Imho

    A common understanding that one knife at a time is kind and sensitive would help too.
    If you're looking for a friend without a fault, you will be without a friend forever.

  18. #58
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    First of McVeyMac ... Congrats on the new grand baby!! I don't think any of us old timers here are looking for the days of old. We are just trying to offer suggestions to maximize the opportunity to expand the buyer opportunities to include more people whether it new or old buyers. That's how Andy's business (any business) expands and grows. I have no problem with somebody purchasing multiple knives but I would like to see an individual post for each knife requested. That allows for even buying opportunity. I have no doubt this will not restrict a sell out on a Friday.

    Mist - Excellent post as well as many others here. Unfortunately I am short on time and can't post more right now but there is some excellent debate here today. I love to see this for Fiddleback Forge and I want nothing more than continued growth for Andy and company.
    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaxE View Post
    I had 2 buddies of mine very interested in these knives also, both tried for a few Fridays and decided that it was not worth their time to get in on the frenzy. This is a big problem IMO. You always want to expand your customer base and while this was just 2 potential customers, they have friends also....
    I just want to point out, that at no time have I seen every single Dealer (listed from Fiddleback's website under purchasing) as totally out of stock. Might not be the latest/greatest but if your friends are unable to own a Fiddleback .. then it's at their shortcomings. I work EVERY Friday .. a swing shift of sorts. I am usually right in the middle of showering, dressing, or prepping a dog/gear for work when the FBF thread is posted. I spent a loong time watching the knives I wanted going to keyboard hovers. But I still wanted one and began looking for an alternative solution. As someone stated, 'I wanted one in my hand so I could see if this was worth the effort'. My first fiddler purchased was thru a Dealer. My next was a leftover no one wanted, days after frenzy. My third from the secondary (used) market .. fourth from a Dealer. IOW .. cry me a river about your friends - they obviously dont want one THAT much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorD View Post
    First of McVeyMac ... Congrats on the new grand baby!! I don't think any of us old timers here are looking for the days of old. We are just trying to offer suggestions to maximize the opportunity to expand the buyer opportunities to include more people whether it new or old buyers. That's how Andy's business (any business) expands and grows. I have no problem with somebody purchasing multiple knives but I would like to see an individual post for each knife requested. That allows for even buying opportunity. I have no doubt this will not restrict a sell out on a Friday.
    Thank you very much for the kind sentiments Dave. I'm going to play with him next weekend, and will likely miss next Friday as a result. I agree 100% that a one post, one knife rule will fix a lot of what people are pointing out here. Have a great weekend Dave.
    "The deadliest thing on the battlefield is one well aimed shot."-Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock, USMC
    Survivor! #15

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