Immunize yourself against fakes

[bernard_levine]

If you incorporate modern materials (e.g. stainless steel), only the most hapless newbies will mistake them for old. But they mistake EvErYtHiNg for old.

A very experienced dealer once showed me a supposed 19th century American dirk, that seemed OK, yet something was bothersome. In photos it did look OK, but in hand the guard was obviously 300 series stainless.

Ditto if you mark with your own stamp, in a modern typeface. Will only fool hapless newbies.

Or you could use a material that would be incorrect on a real knife, e.g. a brass guard on a Sheffield style bowie. Besides newbies, this will also fool people who desperately want to find exceptions to rules of thumb.

Paperwork has a miraculous way of getting lost, if it does not enhance resale value.

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Somewhat related topic:

When Bruce Voyles took the photos for the Antique Bowie Knife Book, he used view camera tilts and shifts to distort the proportions of every knife. I have seen many repros and a few fakes that were carefully copied from that book, and obviously misproportioned. Obvious to me, because I had seen the originals. Not obvious to the makers, or to the average customer.

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A maker I know who makes Japanese style swords (and who once fooled a Shinsa = sword appraisal panel, with one; I know this because I presented it to the Shinsa, and collected the papers they wrote for it) solved this by deeply engraving his own marking on the tang, then filling it flush with lead. Reads clear as a headline in an Xray.

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Anything that can be sold as a valuable antique sooner or later will be.

Maybe in 100 years it WILL be a valuable antique.

I've often seen Victorian replicas of much older edged weapons being passed off as originals. They were made as fake antiques. Now they are antique fakes.

BRL...

[A. Brett Schaller]

Why is it a fake? A couple of thoughts from a non-expert...

The horn handle is in remarkably good condition considering how badly the blade is pitted.

The blade looks artificially aged.

The long shallow clip grind and the wide blade with the narrow clip look more "Iron Mistress" than real Bowie.


What do the bidders plan on doing with it? That's easy... sell it a a genuine Bowie on Ebay.

[Maarten]

Cougar, those are not old parts on the big fake bowie on eBay. They are new cast parts made from molds taken from old knives. Nothing on that knife is old. The color is chemically induced.

Original fancy bowie fittings were not cast. They were thin sheet metal pressed (by hand) into molds, then filled either with lead or with 'rozil' = cutler's cement, made from rosin, beeswax, and brick dust.


Melvin, what were the markings like on the fake Al Mars?


I have not seen fake Al Mars before, but I have seen several fake Loveless knives, all of which were sold by the same little 'antiques' shop in Washington State. Not only are the materials and construction details wrong, the marking is also wrong. But here, as with antiques, you have to know what's right before you can recognize what's wrong, and the fakers are betting that most folks have no clue.





Somewhere I have photos of another from the same source, a fake Delaware Maid with etched markings instead the correct vibro-engraved -- plus it is etched Abercrombie Fitch & Co, not the right name. If I can find em, I'll post em.

BRL...

look at the scale pins and the sheat its a shame LOL

[fishr]

Hello all,

I'm considering a socket bayonet from that period, and I've looked around to see what out there in the land of blades. For a couple of weeks I've been looking as closely as possible at socket bayonets from different periods to get idea what to look for. So the timeframes are between the 1700's to early 1900's in my oberservation with pictures only.

Some of the Civil War bayonets I've looked at are engraved with 'US' in this style:





My question is can anyone offer some advice in terms of what to watch extra closely for in possible reproductions with Civil War socket bayonets? What seperates an authentic one from a repro?

Many thanks for any help!
fishr

[bernard_levine]

Real marks are stamped, not engraved.

If you don't know the difference... you should learn.

BRL...

[fishr]

Real marks are stamped, not engraved.

If you don't know the difference... you should learn.

BRL...

That's why I asked, to learn, even if it's by word of mouth. Maybe I have the defination of "stamped" confused with engraving. To me, with the above picture where it says, "US," it looks like an engraving because the words were etched into the metal. I'm just trying to learn, that is all.
Thanks.

[Cougar Allen]

Etching is yet another way to mark a knife. Etching is eating the metal away with acid. Engraving is cutting the metal away. Stamping displaces the metal. They all look different. Look at a lot of knives....

[fishr]

Many thanks Cougar! That was very helpful and I will do that. Thanks again.

[bernard_levine]

Yup, looking at knives is the only way to learn. That is what this thread is about. Reading it is not enough. Talking about it is not enough. You gotta get out and do it!

BRL...

[fishr]

Thanks again guys for the encouragement. I appreciate it.

[Unsub]

This is an amazing thread. Some fakes like the Loveless are easy to spot but some like the bowies with the cheese knife handles would totally fool me. I just bought my first antique
a second pattern FS dagger which is a very popular knife for fakers. It helped that I did not buy it off Ebay but from a man who had an exellent rep within a small group of a canadian
milsurp community. I had an expert from British blades look over the photos and he said it looked good but what really made me feel comfortable was the story about how he got the knife was so boring it had to be real. He bought it from a calgary surplus store in the 60's. I would expect a faker to have something more interesting like a commando uncle.
Another thing that helped me decide was the ENGLAND stamp. It reduces the value of the knife and would be easier to leave off. When it got here I was terrified I had spent
almost 500$ on a fake but it did not take long to realize it was the real thing.

[logic2]

Thanks for taking the time to post this thread Bernard.

Have you (or anyone else for than matter) ever seen a knife like the one below ? It measures 15.5 in. overall. If you need more (or better) pictures, please let me know. It is an old knife or a fake ?

Thanks for any info
Mike

[bernard_levine]

Welcome!

It is a fantasy fake.

Read the knife. Ignore what the markings happen to say.

BRL...

[DaveinNY]

In this case wouldn't the marking be consistent with the knife? It's a Novelty knife from a Novelty company.

[rprocter]

Dave, i think i finally "got it".
since you can't believe what the markings happen to say, that aspect of the knife has no value in assessing it.
so, after reading the knife, and making a decision as to what it is, it doesn't really matter what the markings happen to say, beause you have already made your decision.
makes sense to me; but sometimes i wonder---- ?
roland

[DaveinNY]

roland, after two years here, I may have "gotten it" also. But still the first thing I look at when I pick up a knife is the tang stamp, old habits are hard to break. But ya know, checking the stamp may just be a subconscious reflex after evaluating the knife itself.

[dorramide7]

Again back to the top.

Here's one reason why.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI...tem=1122455083

BRL...

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http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/links.htm

Thanks for sharing. It's great

__________________
downloading wii games
burn wii games

[cdy]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

This Will & Finck looks pretty sketchy. The Grizzly bar was designated the California state animal in 1953.

[bernard_levine]

Sketchy?

Total fantasy fake.

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The California Grizzly has been on the state flag since California was a Republic.

But that bear is not a Calif. Grizzly. Looks more like an Alaska Brown.

Calif grizzly (now extinct) had much lower forehead, longer body, smaller ears.

BRL...

[Larry303]

...'.lower forehead,longer body,smaller ears'..now I'm confused ...is that the seller or the bear?.....maybe better for all concerned if the seller was extinct and the bear survived?.......
..it must be genuine as genuine folk are bidding on it......so much to learn and so little time...