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Thread: Nick Shabazz Sebenza Review Round 2

  1. #21
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    Support BladeForums!
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    Pick your poison...

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    Toilet paper under or over the top

    It's an opinion, which are very personal..
    Realize where you are..you WILL get fanatics protecting their brand here..This forum is no different than any other subforum on Bladeforums or any fan forum anywhere.
    So, as posted earlier, you can ask a very specific question and get a specific answer..but it will be hard to counter an opinion as I stated before..it's personal.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhyde View Post

    Pick your poison...

    Toilet paper under or over the top

    What savage would ever consider under!?!?!


    With that, I am now in the process of liquidating all CRK knives... and Simpson's memorabilia. That is all.
    "Crossroads, seem to come and go, yeah. The gypsy flies from coast to coast.
    Knowing many, loving none. Bearing sorrow, having fun
    But, back home he'll always run..."

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron City View Post
    What savage would ever consider under!?!?!


    With that, I am now in the process of liquidating all CRK knives... and Simpson's memorabilia. That is all.
    Oh yeah? Well..that is like....just your opinion, man!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by marthinus View Post
    What are specific points you would like to discuss?

    There are a lot of personal opinions on a Sebenza be it this youtuber or members of this forum and knowing what points you would like to discuss would improve the discussion you are looking for.
    Particularly I would like to discuss his point about how the Sebenza's design is "stale" or has become dated. Nick argues that because the design has remained mostly unchanged, but the price continued to rise, the Sebenza is no longer worth its price. I don't agree with that point, but I want to see what other people think.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianmorrow21 View Post
    Particularly I would like to discuss his point about how the Sebenza's design is "stale" or has become dated. Nick argues that because the design has remained mostly unchanged, but the price continued to rise, the Sebenza is no longer worth its price. I don't agree with that point, but I want to see what other people think.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
    So, in Nick's opinion, because the design has basically been static or unchanged, the price should have come down, or remained the same?
    What is he basing this off of or is it based off of competitive offerings from other manufacturers?

    So far, there are a number of variables at play. Materials, wages and such certainly have not come down or even remained the same since the inception of the Sebenza.
    Competition in the market certainly has become crowded with offerings along the same line as CRK, so it's hard to say with any certainty what he is basing his opinions off of if you didn't do some research into what he would actually recommend as a folder.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianmorrow21 View Post
    Particularly I would like to discuss his point about how the Sebenza's design is "stale" or has become dated. Nick argues that because the design has remained mostly unchanged, but the price continued to rise, the Sebenza is no longer worth its price. I don't agree with that point, but I want to see what other people think.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
    I also disagree with that point. CRK has made several substantial design changes, like the shallow hollow grind and the ball detent lockup. They are somewhat more conservative than any of the other manufacturers in that I doubt they will make a huge departure from their base design- we'll probably never see a Sebenza flipper or any opening mechanism other than those thumb studs, for example. But they seem to carefully evaluate the fads in the knife market and figure out what they really think is an actual improvement versus just a matter of taste. I can respect that.

    I guess I would be happier if they'd move away from their "All fixed blades should be 55 RC no matter what super steel we make them from" philosophy, but other than that.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotbossa View Post
    He makes some good points but I just can't get over his voice. Whinny, nasally voice.
    Nick's a good guy, his voice is part of the fun of watching his videos!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhyde View Post
    So, in Nick's opinion, because the design has basically been static or unchanged, the price should have come down, or remained the same?
    What is he basing this off of or is it based off of competitive offerings from other manufacturers?

    So far, there are a number of variables at play. Materials, wages and such certainly have not come down or even remained the same since the inception of the Sebenza.
    Competition in the market certainly has become crowded with offerings along the same line as CRK, so it's hard to say with any certainty what he is basing his opinions off of if you didn't do some research into what he would actually recommend as a folder.
    I definitely agree with that point. No company can make the exact same product for 25+ years and not change the price, that just isn't feasible. I think that the Sebenza is priced appropriately, especially if you understand what it takes to be able to manufacture anything to the standards that CRK hold their knives to. The last point that I want to add to this whole discussion is about Nick's review of the Shirogorov Neon. Nick really raves about that knife and deems it a gem. The Neon is a $650 plain Jane titanium frame lock flipper that runs on bearings, and while it is a very well produced knife, it is not made in the USA like CRK knives. That means that you can't have it readily refurbished, serviced for warranty issues, or order spare parts/accessories. So you pay $225 more than a small Sebenza, and in return get a flipper tab and no product support. Yet despite all of this Nick still considers it to be a gem because of how smooth the action is. I think that the moral of the story is that no matter how objective a review may seem, it is ultimately based on personal opinion and should be taken with a grain of salt.

  9. #29
    I for one really like his observations, much in the same way I enjoy how people offer theirs here as well. I think the fact the guy tried a sebenza again says a few things about his character. Also, he's a big supporter of the tilock, so he's not just a guy on a rant against CRK and its prices.

    To each his/her own I say. He's just another voice out there. I'll watch some of his videos and either agree or disagree, but at the end of the day, I'm glad there are different people out there taking the time to make videos about their experiences with products I don't get to see in person before buying.

  10. #30
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    I think Nick's reviews are well done. He gets to the point quickly (many do not, and no pun intended), does a good job describing the knife, and leaves you with his opinion. Often I don't agree with his opinion.

  11. #31
    I don't put much value in one persons view.
    CRK has stood the test of time. With all the changes in the knife world, CRK just keeps trucking along.
    CRK doesn't make perfect knives, but they're perfect for me. It's not just the knife that makes it so appealing, it's the whole CRK experience that makes them desirable. The knife sells itself, the people behind the knife seals the deal.
    CRK doesn't worry about the flavor of the month, they're consistent with the quality, workmanship, and service of their products.
    I can't understand why people feel CRK is outdated, just look at the Unique Graphics, CCG's and dealer exclusives they offer. What other maker made a Halloween knife?
    Over the years, styles change, whether it's clothes, cars, glasses or knives. In some markets, given enough time and it comes back full circle.
    How many other production knives that are 20 years old fetch the prices that CRK's do ?

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianmorrow21 View Post
    I definitely agree with that point. No company can make the exact same product for 25+ years and not change the price, that just isn't feasible. I think that the Sebenza is priced appropriately, especially if you understand what it takes to be able to manufacture anything to the standards that CRK hold their knives to. The last point that I want to add to this whole discussion is about Nick's review of the Shirogorov Neon. Nick really raves about that knife and deems it a gem. The Neon is a $650 plain Jane titanium frame lock flipper that runs on bearings, and while it is a very well produced knife, it is not made in the USA like CRK knives. That means that you can't have it readily refurbished, serviced for warranty issues, or order spare parts/accessories. So you pay $225 more than a small Sebenza, and in return get a flipper tab and no product support. Yet despite all of this Nick still considers it to be a gem because of how smooth the action is. I think that the moral of the story is that no matter how objective a review may seem, it is ultimately based on personal opinion and should be taken with a grain of salt.
    A little bit of clarity;

    $650.00=41,218.57 rubles. (Russian currency for 11/2/2016)
    This is ~1/2 of the value of the ruble compared to year 2012 ($650= 21,666.66 rubles in 2012)

    You kindof get the idea here..A typical Sebenza doesn't go for $650.00, but is being compared with a $650.00 knife from Russia...See where I am going with this?
    This is saying nothing of what that particular knife goes for in Russia as we are seeing local dealer prices and markups. Are they the same? I would postulate with a resounding no.
    Not an apples to apples comparison.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajack60 View Post
    I don't put much value in one persons view.
    CRK has stood the test of time. With all the changes in the knife world, CRK just keeps trucking along.
    CRK doesn't make perfect knives, but they're perfect for me. It's not just the knife that makes it so appealing, it's the whole CRK experience that makes them desirable. The knife sells itself, the people behind the knife seals the deal.
    CRK doesn't worry about the flavor of the month, they're consistent with the quality, workmanship, and service of their products.
    I can't understand why people feel CRK is outdated, just look at the Unique Graphics, CCG's and dealer exclusives they offer. What other maker made a Halloween knife?
    Over the years, styles change, whether it's clothes, cars, glasses or knives. In some markets, given enough time and it comes back full circle.
    How many other production knives that are 20 years old fetch the prices that CRK's do ?
    10000% Agree! Very well said.




    On the topic of price vs updated design:
    One thing you are paying for when you buy a sebenza, is the customer service, warranty and spa service. Many people think that a spa is only the cost of shipping. In fact, the spa service is paid for when the knife is purchased new. Not many other companies out there are willing to take in their used product and make it new again. Many of the knives that crk produces can be sent in and when they are returned, cannot be distinguished from a new one. Now, anyone who thinks they do that truly for free are just fooling themselves, but I'm more than happy to pay for it up front.
    I have had the good fortune of being able to handle knives that are worth well north of $2000. Not a single one of them were any better than a crk as far as fit and finish is concerned. They may have had fancy materials, but they all had a flaw, some of them glaring. It is actually unusual for a crk to be off-center, have blade play, or lock stick.
    Opinions on ergonomics or visual appeal can and will vary. However, for anyone to say that a Slyze Bowie has better manufacturing than a sebenza, as Shabazz did, is less than honest. Blind squirrels find a nut once in a while, but Spyderco isn't in the same league with CRK as far as manufacturing goes. Check the Blade Show awards as proof.
    Now for some thoughts on his review:
    Since when did a flipper tab become some sort of wonderful upgrade on a knife? Some people love them and that's fine, but many people, including myself, don't care for them. Also, what's so great about bearings? They're fine if you're a knife fondler or never see a speck of dust, but they don't work well for people who operate in dusty, dirty environments. Washers work well in almost any environment, from medical lab-clean to extremely dirty.
    Somebody may want to inform Shabazz that micarta on the sebenza won't lighten in color with use. It becomes darker. The oil from your hands darkens it, and a good cleaning will bring it back to a lighter color.
    I could go on with more examples that, IMO, prove that this guy is a fool, but I won't waste my time. The sebenza isn't for everybody but that's why we have options. This review proves, at least to me, that when you're king of the mountain, there's always somebody looking to knock you off.
    WTB Large Left-Handed "Riddled" Sebenza
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhyde View Post
    A little bit of clarity;

    $650.00=41,218.57 rubles. (Russian currency for 11/2/2016)
    This is ~1/2 of the value of the ruble compared to year 2012 ($650= 21,666.66 rubles in 2012)

    You kindof get the idea here..A typical Sebenza doesn't go for $650.00, but is being compared with a $650.00 knife from Russia...See where I am going with this?
    This is saying nothing of what that particular knife goes for in Russia as we are seeing local dealer prices and markups. Are they the same? I would postulate with a resounding no.
    Not an apples to apples comparison.
    I wasn't really concerned with comparing the two knives directly, rather I was criticizing the methods by which Nick measured the success of each knife. The philosophy of his judgements, if you will. In any case, I appreciate you bringing that to my attention. I hadn't made that consideration.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianmorrow21 View Post
    I wasn't really concerned with comparing the two knives directly, rather I was criticizing the methods by which Nick measured the success of each knife. The philosophy of his judgements, if you will. In any case, I appreciate you bringing that to my attention. I hadn't made that consideration.
    I was thinking that you were not really concerned with the comparison..Really, it's about comparing apples to apples to me.
    Previously, I mentioned that you cannot defend opinions as they are based on emotion..There are many here in this forum that are using the same arguments, but from this side of the fence.
    Either way, competition is good..You have more choices as we all do.. With competition, you inspire creativity and value..With this, I see the real competitors come out for your money letting no one rest on their laurels.

    Ok..Back to the World Series for me

  16. #36
    One thing to keep in mind with YouTube "Reviewers" is that they have opinions and they are not experts.

  17. #37
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    I have not posted this in a while but here are some comments on the worth of the Sebenza by others in the industry.

    The below in italic was what I posted in 2014 and still feel it is relevant.

    Well, here is some food for thought, or just some good reading material regarding tight tolerances, that CRK is renowned for, locks and high dollar knives that Sal Glesser, owner of Spyderco has mentioned through the years on the forums (ps, search is your friend).

    Another thing to remember is that the Manufacturing Quality award that CRK has won so many times are not chosen by a panel, it is voted for by fellow knife makers. Even Bob Dozier, a very established maker in his own right has CRK pocket knives and I love his motto of : if it feels like climbing through a barbed wire fence, there is something wrong. Slim, sleek and simple knives.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Deacon View Post
    A few weeks back, in this thread, someone asked if there was a Spyderco which could compete with the Sebenza. Sal eventually chimed in. His post was primarily a response to someone's skepticism regarding the origins of the framelock. He noted that he had, in his personal collection, a Chris Reeve knife with an earlier lock of Chris' called the "Lock 45". He further noted that it dated back to the 1970's and was the predecessor of the Reeve Integral Lock. That lead to someone asking what it looked like, at which point he suggested sending it to me to be photographed. He also noted in a later post that it was a small knife. It arrived a couple days ago and he wasn't kidding about its size. For the benefit of those who like "dimensional data" it weighs 1.375 ounces (40 grams) has a closed length of 2 13/16" (71 mm), a blade length of 2 7/32" (57mm) with a 2 1/16" (52mm) cutting edge, and is 5/16" (8mm) thick. For those who find photographic comparisons easier to visualize, the first photo below shows it with a Kiwi and my LH Mnandi.

    Beyond that, it's an intriguing design. The action is glassy smooth and the lock up is rock solid despite the fact that the blade is only supported from one side. The small thumb stud and smooth handle, thin on the off side, make it difficult to open, but might be less of a problem for someone right handed and with better motor skills. No clip, that was probably not even a gleam in Sal's eye yet. I'm assuming the handle is titanium anodized to a bronze hue but that, and any other questions regarding it would best be answered by Sal, or someone intimately familiar with Chris Reeve's early knives.


    Closed, lock side:

    close up, to show one of the two ball bearings:


    The balls do not serve as detents, just to smooth the action. Only friction holds the blade closed.

    Another close up, note the angled locking surfaces on the blade...


    Lock side view, half open. You can almost see the lower ball bearing:


    Top view, almost fully open:


    Fully open, lock side:


    Finally, the design does have one peculiarity, you can fold the blade in the wrong direction, at least until the thumb stud makes contact with the frame...


    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Glesser View Post
    Well, I cannot speak for Chris Reeve Knives, but I will offer an opinion.

    I've known Chris and Ann for many years. We worked together when Chris was in South Africa.

    A CRK knife is not a custom knife, nor is it a production knife. They are in a class by themselves. They've taken many years to develop their reputation.

    Each piece is custom made by skilled custom makers. CRK tolerances and standards are the highest I've seen in processes like surface grinding and heat treat. There is a limit to their production capacity.

    Chris is pretty anal on quality. "Quality is time. = Time is money". He pays his craftsmen a fair wage, and he charges a fair margin, he gives the world a product like no other. Chris and Ann work hard and they make a good living. "Enormous profits" is an inside joke that Chris and I laugh about. Frankly, I think they'd feel guilty if they made too much money.

    The "Market" will determine if his business strategies work, regardless of what they are. If they don't work, adjustments are made....that's how businesses survive.

    BTW, the flip side of a "bargain driven" market is manufacturers are forced to import product (export jobs) from China to compete in the need for the "lower price". More complications.

    sal

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Glesser View Post
    Hi Dulleddown,

    More profit is usually associated with higher price. That's normal. Profit is usually a percentage of sales price. To think that a high priced auto should garner the same proft as a low priced auto is not in accord with business. It might be the same percentage, but being more expensive, it will be more profit.

    Unless you are a manufacturer, familiar with close tolerance manufacturing of heat treated steel & Titanium parts, you are not likely to be able to see all of the differences between one of Chris' knives and others. For example; CRK keeps 0.0005 tolerance on surface grinding. That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledsge and equipment to discover that tolerance?

    In the end, it's all about trust. CRK took many years to build and maintain their repuation. Built with consistent focus. Even those trying to make a "cheaper" version must "leave out processes" or "soften their tolerance", or they will cost as much.

    Rarely do you pay for the "name". That's a bullshit sales pitch made up by the ignorant claiming to offer the same for less. Money valuation between countries might offer a "deal" for a while until the money value balances, but all in all, you will get what you pay for.

    sal

    -----------------------------------------------------

    Just because you can't see the difference doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means you can't see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Glesser View Post
    Hi GWLee,

    The benefit of tight tolerances is usually for long term durability as well as smooth function. Long term durability is difficult to determine in a short term decision. That's why reputation is important.

    sal
    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Glesser View Post
    Nice video.

    High dollar knives are high dollar because they cost more to make. It might be materials (Titanium, unubtanium, etc.), it might be tolerances (Chris' has lotsa zeros after the decimal before hitting numbers), it might be labor (carving, engraving, etc.).

    Sometmes those differences are difficult if not impossible for even the trained eye to detenct, generally impossible for a new student.

    Just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean it isn't there, sometimes it just means you can't see it.

    sal


    At the same time there are many people that feel the knife is not worth it, I did until I read Sal Glesser's comments and bought one myself after 3 years of saving (the knife was later taken in a mugging) and I was UTTERLY UNDERWHELMED when I bought it, even though I handled it before hand I just felt like owning something of true quality for the first time in my life (like a good quality car/suite/watch/camera). Until I used it non stop, on the farm etc and everything just started "flowing" and making sence. I replaced the stolen knife with an Insingo. I will always have a CRK and they retail for around $625 here. They are, for me at least, worth it and my personal connection, what the Sebenza has meant in my life, makes it special for me.

    I have rambled a bit, but I hope some of what I have said has helped you to form your own opinion on the matter.

  18. #38
    Marthinus, thank you for posting this information.

    Mr. Glesser provides some interesting information related to quality, reputation and value. While I certainly favor CRK knives to most others, I have a number of Spyderco products I enjoy and also like visit his forum on BF. I especially like how he interacts with members related to current products and those in R/D.

    I'm not sure what else can be said in this string at this point.

  19. #39
    Nicks review is spot on. lots of haters and fanboys will hate him for it tho. ignorance is bliss.

    CRK is known for the best tolerances in the biz tho.

  20. #40
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    I personally really appreciate Mr. Shabbazz's reviews. The Sebenza doesn't need anybody to stand up for it, so I think that is a moot point. His channel is really good, and quite entertaining. I don't always agree, but the honesty is there.

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