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Thread: Council 3.5lb Classic Jersey

  1. #21
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    Personally I think it's far less of a liability issue than using aluminum wedges, but that's just me. Lawyers are weird.


    Baryonyx Knife Co. ~Trusted specialists in high value, low cost knives and tools.

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  2. #22
    If a manufacturer is concerned that selling heads is a liability issue because somebody might do something stupid or wrong with it then you would think selling replacement handles to the general public would be even worse.

  3. #23
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    My guess is the real reason is they just don't want to complicate things for themselves.


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    "To live at all is miracle enough."
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortyTwoBlades View Post
    Personally I think it's far less of a liability issue than using aluminum wedges, but that's just me. Lawyers are weird.
    I agree 100%!

    The only benefit of the aluminum wedge is that it removes itself effortlessly so I can lower the head a bit and put in a properly fitted wooden wedge. I wonder if they aren't slowly getting the message, though, as I showed pictures of a CT boys axe that appeared to have had the metal wedge secured with small nails...Maybe they will run out of the marvelous metal wedge and do wood and a round metal wedge like my ritzy $20 truper .

  5. #25
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    I'm guessing Council likes the metal because it's easier to drive in mechanically. At least it's not steel. Aluminum drills out easily if need be. The wedge on my personal Classic Jersey is holding steady so far but, being cognizant of the known tendency for them to loosen, it's something I'm actively looking for, too.


    Baryonyx Knife Co. ~Trusted specialists in high value, low cost knives and tools.

    "To live at all is miracle enough."
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by BG_Farmer View Post
    I agree 100%!

    The only benefit of the aluminum wedge is that it removes itself effortlessly so I can lower the head a bit and put in a properly fitted wooden wedge. I wonder if they aren't slowly getting the message, though, as I showed pictures of a CT boys axe that appeared to have had the metal wedge secured with small nails...Maybe they will run out of the marvelous metal wedge and do wood and a round metal wedge like my ritzy $20 truper .
    It is an under 50 dollar hardware store axe that is actually an axe not just an axe shaped object. I doubt they are going to change anything.

  7. #27
    I may have gotten a rare example but this is a comparison of the council tool handle compared to a Kelly perfect 4lb.( It is the same size and thinner, in spots. ) The Kelly handle (and the council) are about as thin as I would want to go. The Council could stand to be sanded smooth in a couple of spots. And the shape of the handle overall as well as the cross section shape is far superior on the Kelly. Also a couple of grain and wedge shots.















    They glue that metal wedge in. The handle is recessed as opposed to proud or flush.
    Last edited by Woodcraft; 03-11-2017 at 05:08 PM.

  8. #28
    The reason they don't sell just the head is that they don't have any control over the handle used. Some idiot might hang it on a 2x4 and injure themselves when it eventually fails.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskey_Jim View Post
    . . . Some idiot might hang it on a 2x4 and injure themselves when it eventually fails.






    Bob

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskey_Jim View Post
    The reason they don't sell just the head is that they don't have any control over the handle used. Some idiot might hang it on a 2x4 and injure themselves when it eventually fails.
    With what Quality Control has become over the past 1/2 century, with regard to judging properties of wood, this might be a mixed blessing.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodcraft View Post
    It is an under 50 dollar hardware store axe that is actually an axe not just an axe shaped object. I doubt they are going to change anything.
    My remarks are as a true fan of CT axes. I just think they could easily be made better with minimal additional cost. The aluminum wedge came out of my son's HB within a few hours of use. Designs with deeper eyes probably last longer, but it is a matter of time. Add that I've seen many comments online where the heads get loose...And, finally, if the design is so good, why do CT use the wood and metal conical combo on the velvicuts?

    The Truper (some of which I think are actually pretty decent, esp. for the price) was mentioned as a low cost "competitor" that does have a good head attachment method and likely uses the same machinery and labor skill level as the aluminum wedge.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by BG_Farmer View Post
    My remarks are as a true fan of CT axes. I just think they could easily be made better with minimal additional cost. The aluminum wedge came out of my son's HB within a few hours of use. Designs with deeper eyes probably last longer, but it is a matter of time. Add that I've seen many comments online where the heads get loose...And, finally, if the design is so good, why do CT use the wood and metal conical combo on the velvicuts?

    The Truper (some of which I think are actually pretty decent, esp. for the price) was mentioned as a low cost "competitor" that does have a good head attachment method and likely uses the same machinery and labor skill level as the aluminum wedge.
    I am guessing that aluminum is cheaper to manufacture consistent sizes uniformity/use than wood. It does not split or need to be trimmed. Consistent size and shape probably mean a machine can apply the same pressure and fit is final no trimming. I can not imagine that it is not a cost efficient method. As far as the wood metal combo and how good it is that debatable. (Council seems to suffer under the heavy hand of a lawyers opinion and I have a suspicious thought that that is the only reason for the secondary wedge/barrel wedge. I have a Wetterlings Hudson bay that has only a wooden wedge and what I imagine is crazy thousand pound apoxy on it. And that is considered a top of the line axe.
    I like that council tool still manufactures axes in the US. I like that they did not take the easy path. I like that for 40 and change I can get an American made brand new Jersey axe. I am not impressed with some choices they have made on recent models. Can not please everyone, and they have a company to keep afloat.
    My point, whatever it was.......Is this. I do not think they can make any real changes in the production process and keep the axe in the price point it is competing in. That said if they would pay a guy to run a wooden mallet and drive apoxy covered wooden wedges in and trim them off it would be nice.

  13. #33
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    I think they have a market ready and waiting for a mid-level line of products between the Velvicut and standard series, personally.


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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodcraft View Post
    I am guessing that aluminum is cheaper to manufacture consistent sizes uniformity/use than wood. It does not split or need to be trimmed. Consistent size and shape probably mean a machine can apply the same pressure and fit is final no trimming. I can not imagine that it is not a cost efficient method. As far as the wood metal combo and how good it is that debatable. (Council seems to suffer under the heavy hand of a lawyers opinion and I have a suspicious thought that that is the only reason for the secondary wedge/barrel wedge. I have a Wetterlings Hudson bay that has only a wooden wedge and what I imagine is crazy thousand pound apoxy on it. And that is considered a top of the line axe.
    I like that council tool still manufactures axes in the US. I like that they did not take the easy path. I like that for 40 and change I can get an American made brand new Jersey axe. I am not impressed with some choices they have made on recent models. Can not please everyone, and they have a company to keep afloat.
    My point, whatever it was.......Is this. I do not think they can make any real changes in the production process and keep the axe in the price point it is competing in. That said if they would pay a guy to run a wooden mallet and drive apoxy covered wooden wedges in and trim them off it would be nice.
    I don't think we have any real argument! I think CT, especially the regular line, are pretty sweet axes for the price, and I plan to buy more. I would pay an extra dollar or two, whatever the extra cost per unit, and I think it would increase sales, if they improved the wedging...

    Quote Originally Posted by FortyTwoBlades View Post
    I think they have a market ready and waiting for a mid-level line of products between the Velvicut and standard series, personally.
    I think they cut corners cosmetically on the standards to compete at the lower end, but I haven't seen one in a store in years, whereas they might dominate the hard core axe users market with just a couple of tweaks, even at a higher price point. From a business perspective, I think the velvicuts are overpriced, and some of their new designs leave me dazed and confused from a practical use point of view. I'm envisioning a jerseyesque boys axe with hardened poll and straight handle (at least as option), decently finished at 65$ or so? Maybe even 80...I'm a cheapskate, though I'd be super critical of heat treatment at that price point. More in the HB/Husqvarna price space than GFB or customs. Something like that would appeal to all sorts, in my opinion.

  15. #35
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    Between $60-80 with wooden wedges, 58 RC in the bit, and a hardened poll. Finish grind them like the Classic models and call it good.


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortyTwoBlades View Post
    Between $60-80 with wooden wedges, 58 RC in the bit, and a hardened poll. Finish grind them like the Classic models and call it good.
    They won't go that high with RC hardness. Not sure if they are afraid of broken bits and returns or some one getting a chip in their eye and a law suit.
    They have given us hatchets with fangs and some other non traditional designs but they won't give us good old fashion axe with a geometry like this country routinely made for a couple hundred years.
    It's unfortunate...

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by garry3 View Post
    They won't go that high with RC hardness. Not sure if they are afraid of broken bits and returns or some one getting a chip in their eye and a law suit.
    They have given us hatchets with fangs and some other non traditional designs but they won't give us good old fashion axe with a geometry like this country routinely made for a couple hundred years.
    It's unfortunate...
    It is. Very. I fear when they finally do it will be ruined by foolishness.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by garry3 View Post
    They won't go that high with RC hardness. Not sure if they are afraid of broken bits and returns or some one getting a chip in their eye and a law suit.
    They have given us hatchets with fangs and some other non traditional designs but they won't give us good old fashion axe with a geometry like this country routinely made for a couple hundred years.
    It's unfortunate...
    I know they won't go that hard...but they should, and that's why I specified it. They're a good hardness for rough uses where you need to be able to speedily reshape an edge, but I wish they'd just bump that hardness up several notches.

    I've heard rumblings that there may be some more traditional designs coming soon, but we'll all have to sit around and wait to see what they are and how soon they get here.


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    "To live at all is miracle enough."
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  19. #39
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    I'd be happy with 53-57. The old FS spec boys axes they sold a few years back were a good product. Quality axe for about $60. They replaced it with a 'bad boys' axe for twice the price and lost that market.

  20. #40
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    55 is about the softest I like in an axe, personally. If they could stay 55-58 for their target range I think that'd be good.


    Baryonyx Knife Co. ~Trusted specialists in high value, low cost knives and tools.

    "To live at all is miracle enough."
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