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Thread: Endura lock stregnth?

  1. #1

    Endura lock stregnth?


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    I've been looking to replace my cold steel pro lite with a similarly priced knife. I was thinking of getting one of those limited run waved endura's. The cold steel is a decent knife for the money, but 440A isn't nearly as good steel as spyderco's VG10 and i find the serrations on the cold steel snag when cutting clothing and seem to damage easily (neither are good for a fighting knife, which is why i'm through with serrations). The primary use of this knife is weapon of the last resort and retention knife for my pistol. It will occasionally cut through cardboard targets in training if my gun runs dry or has some terrible mechanical failure (Not likely with the glock, but i try to keep it realistic).

    Yesterday night i was contemplating the lock stregnth subject and remembered the "more proof" video with the pro lite holding 70 lbs. I thought to myself "that's a fairly unrealistic test" as i'm more concerned with shock resistance rather than shearing stregnth. So i whipped out my monadnock (collapsable baton), flicked open the pro lite and held it making sure none of my hand was in the way of the blade closing and gave the top of the blade a whack. Not a huge whack mind you, just good tap with about 4 inches of travel. I was fairly disappointed as it snapped shut. didn't break or anything, the shock just disengaged the lock and closed the blade. left a little dent on the top of the blade (and not a scratch on the monadnock). Seems the lock stregnth hype is just that.

    just like i'd never expect my pistol to do the job of my rifle, I'm not expecting fixed blade stregnth from a folder. For that i have fixed blades. Just tell me i'm not apt to collapse the lock stabbing through a sternum and i'm sold.

  2. #2
    According to spydco, the wave reduce the waved endura's balde strength by 15%. If you want a folder mainly as a weapon then go with axis lock.

  3. #3
    thanks for being honest. Do you have a suggestion? I played with a CS recon 1 and the amount of blade play and lack of smoothness was not confidence inspiring. Is benchmade the way to go for an axis lock?

    Lacking a wave, I have a strong preference for large thumb holes.

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneKnifeMan
    According to spydco, the wave reduce the waved endura's balde strength by 15%. If you want a folder mainly as a weapon then go with axis lock.
    OneKnifeMan

    You're comparing 2 different things. Waving the blade had no effect on lock strength

    Victory

    Here is the text of two posts by Sal Glesser on the subject of lock strength standards. If I remember correctly, the Endura is a "Heavy Duty" folder, according to the Spyderco classification. Whole self-defense programs have been built around the Spyderco Endura/Delica pair (that's why there are trainers produced for these two models) so I wouldn't worry about the strength for your intended use.


    The Manix is running over 200 inch/lbs per inch of blade which would rate it Very Heavy Duty (same as MBC, but as suggested by a forumite, MBC may not be a good name for the rating considering the large number of customers that have no interest in Martial Blade Craft (MBC).

    There is no governing body that sets rating. Spyderco employs our own in-house rating system in the construction of our designs. We set the desired standard when we design the model and build to that standard. We test (break) the models in development and continue to test (break) the models to ensure that our standards have not changed.

    In-house Lock strength standards
    Light Duty = over 25 inch/lbs of lock strength per inch of blade length
    Medium Duty = over 50 inch/lbs per inch of blade length
    Heavy Duty = over 100 inch/lbs per inch of blade length.
    Very Heavy Duty (MBC) = over 200 inch/lbs of lock strength per inch of blade length.
    We also have our standards for G-10 (ours is custom made), blade strength, and other general safety issues.

    sal


    We've not made a list. Most are not really interested. We do it for our own peace of mind. It is important not to cut the hand that feeds you.

    Basically, the FRN pieces will be Medium and heavy. SS pieces are usually in the heavy duty range. The Very heavy duty will be pieces ike the Gunting, Yojimbo, Chinook, Manix, Lil Temperance, etc.

    Light duty pieces will be the smaller pieces, Kiwi, Ladybug,etc.

    Maybe someday?

    sal



    Hope this helps!

    David

  5. #5
    That's a good point you bring up...the lock, not the blade is the weakest link in any folding knife. The blade stregnth being reduced by 15% probably isn't my largest concern considering that i've seen $1.50 steak knives rammed through fairly tough portions of human anatomy. It doesn't take an expensive knife to kill someone, i've seen a guy almost bite it with one stab from a barbeque fork.

    Come to think of it, a knife for use as a self-defense piece undergoes way less abuse than a utility knife. Humans are nice and soft and no one wants to dull or damage their defensive knife with heavy cutting or prying crap open. That's why i carry a SOG EOD multitool and one of those myerco folding box cutters and a Benchmade rescue hook, so i don't have to use my tactical folder (all this talk of utility knives is giving me a hard-on for an Assist I....resistance....futile). Aside from the accasional slash through an IDPA target in training, my defensive knives seldom have to cut anything.

    I don't hammer nails with my glock either, even though i could.

    thanks david, that's a different way of looking at it.
    Last edited by victory; 11-03-2005 at 10:44 PM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by victory
    That's a good point you bring up...the lock, not the blade is the weakest link in any folding knife.
    Actually, the lock is not the weakest point, nor is the blade. Sal has said:

    In most breaks, the pins are the first to fail. They rarely break, usually they bend, which distorts the part(s). Then a failure follows.

    The 2nd most "common" break is the area around the pins goes.

    Occasionally, the tang breaks or the locks itself breaks.

    Each part that fails is increased in strength by adding material, changing material or changing hardness. Sometimes an engineering change is required. Each case is different. The goal of every manufacturer is (or should be) to create a reliable safe product for their customer.

    This type of testing is very common in the auto industry.

    sal



    David

  7. #7
    true, my buddy's Pro lite had a pin damaged from consistantly flicking the blade open. This lead to lots of blade wiggle. CS was nice enough to fix it.

  8. #8
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    The Endura is heavy duty rated. The lock will stand a lot of vertical pressure, but not that much lateral stress.

  9. #9
    The Endura hovers between very high medium and low heavy duty. These are pressure tests, not impact tests. All of our knives are spine tapped a number of times during the manufacturing process, but they are not destructive taps, enough to test the fit and geometry. They are again tested in QC.

    The Endura 4 with full, but nested steel liners are well into the heavy duty range. We'll have more consistent testing done when they are in production.

    sal

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by 4 s ter
    OneKnifeMan

    You're comparing 2 different things. Waving the blade had no effect on lock strength
    I understand lock and blade strength are different things. I was trying to inform him that waving somehow weakened the blade. Since he's going carry the knife mainly for SD, he needs the blade as strong as possible. Any thing can happen in SD. You can hit the bone etc..

  11. #11
    Hi Victory,

    The limited edition "Waved" model made by the factory is not any weaker than the stock model. Waving the model by cutting into the hole does weaken the blade by 15% in our testing. That 's why we made the limited edition.

    SD is a deep subject. Just having a knife does help some, but without training, awareness, sharpness, etc. it is limited.

    The Endura 4 has a waved version coming out next year.

    sal

  12. #12
    well put me down for a waved endura 4 next year as well. I have one of the current models coming in and i'm sure it will serve me well until then, then make an excellent backup knife.

    I'm a student of Nick Hughes. In my opinion a better blade and unarmed training does not exist. I did get a chance to use an endura trainer in the last class i took and liked it.

    Thanks for the help, sal, and props for making training knives to duplicate the feel of your factory models. It's a big help in training that a lot of manufacturers who claim to be the "big boys" of MBC overlook.

    Oneknifeman, as i said, I don't expect my folder to perfom like a fixed blade. That would be an unreasonable expectation.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Glesser
    Hi Victory,

    The limited edition "Waved" model made by the factory is not any weaker than the stock model. Waving the model by cutting into the hole does weaken the blade by 15% in our testing. That 's why we made the limited edition.

    SD is a deep subject. Just having a knife does help some, but without training, awareness, sharpness, etc. it is limited.

    The Endura 4 has a waved version coming out next year.

    sal
    Sal, I apologize, I must have misread the post about waved blade being 15 % percent weaker. Are you going to make a waived Delica in the near future?

  14. #14
    Hi OneKnifeMan.

    yes, the waved Delica comes out with the waved Endura. Ernest Emerson has licensed Spyderco to use his "Wave" feature (& name) on both the Endura and Delica.

    sal

  15. #15
    Guess i'll need both. Are they going to be production models, or just another limited run sold through self-defense gear?
    Last edited by victory; 11-06-2005 at 03:56 PM.

  16. #16
    They'll be regular production sold through our normal distribution channels.

    sal

  17. #17
    Both with VG-10?

  18. #18
    yes

    sal

  19. #19
    sweet, very cool of ernie to licence the wave to you guys. I'm sure it will be a popular line.

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