History question: the first Stacked Leather handles?

[N. Brian Huegel]

Chrome tanned leather is very soft and is difficult to impossible to harden enough for a good stacked grip. The vege tanned discs would be wetted, stacked, and compressed tightly, then will dry hard. Even harder if baked dry at 140°. After being baked, then oiled, the leather is quite water resistant.

Except that leather washer handles are constructed from dry (pre/partially compressed when stamped) washers, stacked over the tang, compressed in a fixture and held in place by the pommel, which is held by a pin, nut, or cavity in the pommel that was filled with molten metal). The handle washers were generally sourced from automotive gasket manufacturers.

[Cougar Allen]

I think brain tanned leather was used to some extent up until the 19th century or so -- I don't know to what extent. Brain tanned leather isn't fully tanned; it's just raw hide that has soaked up enough oil so it doesn't get hard. If it gets wet and stays wet for long it might well start to rot and stink. I think modern vegetable tanned leather has been in use for a long time, but not necessarily exclusively....

Modern commercial leather is either vegetable tanned or chrome tanned (though other processes are still used by amateurs). Vegetable tanned leather is very familiar to us knife knuts because nearly all leather knife sheaths are made of vegetable tanned leather. (I have seen a few very cheap sheaths made of thin chrome tanned leather.) Information on modern commercial leather is readily available. Information on what was used in past centuries is not so easy to find.

[Fox Creek]

Chrome tanned leather is inherently unsuitable for any use around or near carbon steel tools (knives or firearms). It remains somewhat acidic and especially in the presence of moisture/high humidity will corrode steel.

[Toooj]

All,

At Camillus, Ontario and KA-BAR, vegetable tanned leather was and is still being used for stacked leather washers. At KA-BAR, we specify sole leather (From the backs and sides) as it is not as "flabby' as belly leather. We used to get drops from a leather shoe sole manufacturer. Now we get the drops from a sheath manufacturer. Under proper compression and care, stacked leather can last a very long time. The leather handles for the government issue, leather handled knives were at one time sprayed with an anti mildew/rot fungicide called PNP (para nitrol phenol) it was nasty, dangerous stuff. It probably made the leather hold up in tropical climates but at what cost? I understand there is another safer chemical in use these days, but I don't know what that is. Sorry for rambling.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Qual
KA-BAR Knives

[bernard_levine]

Thanks for the corrections, and the detailed background.

BRL...

[WcrownR]

"What is the oldest positively datable leather handled item you have, or have seen?
Remember, we are talking about stacked solid leather handles, not wood handles wrapped with leather (ray, shark, horse) as used on swords, which is a very old technology." - BRL

This showed up on eBay yesterday.
Well, the seller sounds positive.
(About the pricing - If an "Early American Frontier black smith" made it, it must be valuable.)
Bring reading glasses, and sense of humor.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-LATE-17...item5d354d2446

[DJD]

Thanks for the laugh of the day.

DD

[Gary G]

That ebay listing is hilarious. And it's the longest description I've ever seen on any knife. And it's wrong in so many ways ( ).
I like his finishing sentences:

A high end collector and his friend, a knife maker of 40 years that I met at a recent show, both studied this knife extensively. Both were experts in early American knives from the American Revolutionary War period, and the early hand forging / hand filing / hand grinding techniques used in 18th & later 19th century knife making in America. They both described the knife as an American 1775-1825 "GEM".

I hope they're reading the Ebay listing!