I've never seen a Case of that pattern. I've seen a lot of German knives of that size though
Has anyone seen anything like this before?
Here's a link to the owner's post, complete with more photos. (click on them to enlarge):
I've never seen a Case of that pattern. I've seen a lot of German knives of that size though
Your right it does look German. I dont see antthing like it in my references. If it really is a Case, it is a true treasure. Lets put it on ebay and see what its worth. HaHa!
Says "Case".... smells like "Nixdorf"....
Note that the nail nick in the purported "Case" master blade looks in the big photo, like it has been ground into... ditto the "A" in PA. And I've never seen fancy hand engraved, (or an etch to mimic the aformentioned) master blades in anything Case ever made. Also, come to think of it, I've not seen, myself that is, any of these sorts of fancy multis with anything but a spear shaped master. I has only taken the "possible" replacement of one marked blade to put this knife in the "ware and valuable" category. If, and I repeat if, this was the only blade in what might have been an original knife that was marked with a maker's mark, then it was an easy fake for a big take if you get my meaning. Of course, it could be legit, "could" being the operative word until someone better equipped wades in on this thread.
Quote; The center main blade has W. R. Case and Sons etch with the early Bradford, PA stamp on the tang.
If you look at the close up of the blade showing the tang stamp, it looks like the blade is on the side not in the center of the knife, also if you look at the master blade in the full picture, the nail nick doesnt look ground into. ??????????? The close up of the master and the full photo of the master look completely different.
Me thinks some one might be playing games. ????????
1. Note the nail nicks in raised tabs on some of the smaller blades.
Note how thin the blades are, in the top view.
It was made in Nixdorf, Bohemia, not in Germany.
2. The Case tang stamp was clearly over-stamped over something else.
It IS an old style import stamp, though.
3. As Mitch notes, the blade "etch" was either engraved into the blade (hard to do) or drawn freehand in resist, and etched.
It is not a factory etch.
Conceivably this was all done in the early pre-1905 wholesale days of Case.
But I would not bet much money on this possibility.
Read the knife.
Read HOW it was marked.
Ignore what the markings happen to say.
I was informed of the posting here of my W R Case multiblade and had noticed that there were questions regarding the knife which I beleive is possably caused by the quality of the photos. Please refer back to my posting at AAPK, I have added additional photos.
BRL - I am sorry but I have to disagree with you. The mark on the tang has not been over-stamped over something else.
I do not have your book in front of me but the reason I thought it may be made by Hinckel is because the shape and blades are simular to the one you show and the backside of the tang is marked GERMANY. ( I may have seen it in a different book - can't remember for sure)
Thanks for your interests -
Henckels did not use those raised tab nail nicks, nor were their blades thin, like Nixdorf blades. The tabs are a French innovation, copied by Frenzel in Nixdorf, and by Dittert in nearby Neustadt im Sachsen. Dittert used a different style of tang stamp, arched with thick letters, while Frenzel used the narrow gothic style on this knife -- as did many central and east European mfr's in the early 20th century.
Please make a better Cal-photo (or scan) of the master blade. Lose the black background and the high contrast lighting. Use smooth light gray background, diffuse light, sharp focus, larger size.
I am not ruling out the possibility that this knife was tang stamped for Case by the maker (Frenzel) and custom etched for or by Case. But since the likelihood of this is low, the burden of proof is on the advocates of those hypotheses.
The picture you posted makes the tang look over-stamped. Maybe a better photo would clear this up. No Photoshop, please.
Even if the tang IS over-stamped, it was done with an old stamp, and might still be legitimate. Might...
BRL - Thanks for the help you are providing. I have a couple questions that you will probably be able to answer. Since the knife has blades that a Bohemian knife would have had and since Germany shares the boarder with them, were there any knife makers close to the boarder that could have been or were influenced by them? Is it possible a German maker was supplied blades or parts from Bohemia?
I don't know if you noticed but I have added pictures to the posting on AAPK Forum .You can follow the link at the start of the posting here and go to the 2nd page of postings at AAPK.
I will try to provide you with the photos you requested as soon as I can.
Does it say GERMANY on it somewhere?
It does not look German.
Dittert was close to the border. But it did not make this knife.
Its marked GERMANY on the otherside of the master blade on the tang.... will include photo when I take the others.
BRL - I have posted additional photos of the master blade and both sides of the tang on the AAPK thread ( page 2). once again you can follow the link on the first posting of this thread. The only alteration done to the photos was to crop them to reduce file size, otherwise they are straight out of the camera.
I do not know if you have read all of the thread at AAPK, but it provides a little information on how I obtained the knife and where it came from.
The main blade logo is an etch and not an engraving. Looking at the GERMANY mark on the reverse side of the tang, I believe it to be etched as well. I am thinking that perhaps the style of printing and the fact GERMANY is etched may help.
Well... that GERMANY etch is truly bizarre. Almost certainly an add-on... but WHY? The knife is still not German.
Just for my own knowledge, how can you tell that something like the GERMANY mark is an add on to a knife? It would be good for me to know.
Do you still feel that the tang had been overstamped over something else since I provided better pictures?
Since you know that the knife is Bohemian, there are reasons why it may bear the GERMANY mark. I am not an history expert but have had other items in my other collections that have had marks different from where the were made. I have had some knowledgable people explain it to me.
What I was told was the McKinley Tariff Act of 1890 required the country of origin to be marked in English on all items imported to the United States. The country of origin does not necessarily mean the country made but the country it is being exported from.
The knife may have been made in Bohemia for an exporter or wholesaler in Germany which in turn sold it to W.R.Case and Sons along with the etch. GERMANY would be required to be on the knife.
The McKinley Tarrif Act also had reciprocal agreements with various countries regarding tariffs charged on imported and exported goods that had been negotiated. It may have been advantageous for it to go through Germany and bear the GERMANY mark.
Thinking back I am trying to remember whether or not I have ever seen anything marked Bohemia for the US market. Was there any imports from Bohemia at that time ? I am sure you know the answer to that better than I.
Looking back on the thread I do not think I got an answer to the question of whether it was possible that a german knife maker obtained blades and or parts from Bohemia. The only reason I thought it may have been a Henckels is the shape, size and postioning of the pins on the Henkel shown in your book, listed under Sportsman knives, match exactly when I lay it on top of it.... but you are right - construction and design of some of the blades are different.
Thanks again for your input
Here's a link to a previous post by Mr Levine. Go to post #8 for photos of a Dittert that bears a striking resemblance to your knife minus the master. The Germany etch on your knife looks a bit too crude for a cutler to have done it IMO. The Bohemian knives were made quite well.
Last edited by ea42; 11-08-2007 at 07:22 PM. Reason: Helps if I add the link!
The Frenzel just below the Dittert on that thread looks like a very close, if not exact match.
The new pictures are worse, not better. Shot at an angle, and with electronic zoom.If you can't do any better than that with your camera, try a scanner.Please make a better Cal-photo (or scan) of the master blade. Lose the black background and the high contrast lighting. Use smooth light gray background, diffuse light, sharp focus, larger size.
When working out complicated historical theories, it helps to actually know some of the relevant history.
Circa 1900, one of the biggest wholesale cutlery importers in the US, Wiebusch & Hilger, imported directly from Nixdorf. A little tiny local jobber such as Case would would have started out buying from the big wholesalers, W&H, Kastor, etc. Eventually might have gotten big enough to import directly -- but probably not, since Case shifted to domestic sourcing, and eventually began its own manufacturing in 1905 -- though still selling a few imported patterns.
The GERMANY marking on your knife was not applied in any factory. When or why it was applied -- who knows?
Wow .... Thanks for providing the link Eric. I had been on that page before but somehow did not see the Frenzel. All I remembered was the ad with the lady and the Dittert.
DD your right ! That could almost be the same knife.All of the blades are pretty much the same, the same fabrication and design of the corkscrew gimlet needle, awl, punch, and etc.. Even the 3 1/8 " length is accurate. Its condition is better than mine.
Bear in mind that Case moved from Little Valley (jobbing operation) to Bradford (built factory) in 1905. If the subject knife has ties to Case, the "Bradford PA" in the tang stamping would indicate that if it was made for Case it would have been circa 1905 or later.
Additional photos of the tang posted on the AAPK thread - hope these will work. My scanner will not take a good image of tang - no depth of field with it. If these do not work I will need to take with film camera and scan them.
The mystery of why the Germany stamp is on the knife makes sense to me now. I feel I have a pretty good grasp of history in general, but you are right ... I do not have the knowlege of knife history like I need to. That is why I am in the forums, to learn. I appreciate you sharing you knowledge of Case and the wholesale Cutlery trade at the time.
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