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Thread: Question about Schrade and Wostenholm connection

  1. #21

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    Mazing Pictures Irv

  2. #22
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    Ive updated Larry's corner at the web page with all these and tons of other pictures.
    Amazing stuff. He must have a large house and understanding wife...
    Check out his Camillus anniv knives.
    TTYL
    Larry
    I've gotten that dreaded furniture disease. That's when your chest is falling into your drawers!

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by lrv View Post
    ...He must have a large house and understanding wife...
    "Oh! Do you come from a land down under? (oh yeah yeah)
    Where women glow and men plunder?


    I have a feeling that Aussie Larry is even more generous toward his wife than he has been toward me and everyone else (and that is saying a lot!). Never heard him mention rassling crocs for entertainment, but I think he must take out his anger on the Great White Sharks.

    Wanna see my kangaroo scrotum again?

    Codger

    Oh, and I might mention that in his latest additions to his collection is a pair of J.C. Higgins fixed blades that are of very special interest in that they predate the 1961Ted Williams celeb endorsement program for Sears. Most of the J.C. Higgins etched and stamped knives you will see are products of Western States Cutlery. Likewise, most of the Williams knives are Schrade Waldens. He and the Baers were fishing buddies.

  4. #24
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    We could take this conversation into the gutter very quickly and be looking up at the curb.

    I'd love to see the look on the Roo when the pouch was removed.

    I know the sheath made from it will fit any knife.
    If the sheath is too large, chill it, if its to small, a little rubbing will do wonders.


    Larry did mention where he lives has a large population of Great Whites and
    a lot of tree hugging folks love to go out and attempt to make friends with them. Wonder why those great whites stick around?
    I've gotten that dreaded furniture disease. That's when your chest is falling into your drawers!

  5. #25
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    well i just added some more "junk" to my collection. Schrade I*XL limited edition set #0748: 3 lockback knives in stag with sheaths, all still in display box. i'll post pics when it arrives. roland

  6. #26
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    Stockmanii, Maximus giganticus (var. Schradei)

    i opened a recent parcel to find a well packed burgandy box marked: Schrade I*XL Geo. Wostenholm & Son Sheffield England Limited Edition.; undid the brass latch and opened the hinged box, revealing a pristine paper card telling me about this knife "The first Schrade I*XL knife being introduced ----",then another pristine paper "Certificate of Ownership"; the another "Registration Certificate"; then, "Holy Sh**" involuntarily escaped my lips as i saw the knife. my first thought was, "it's gotta be a display knife, it's too big". but then it took into hand and opened up the clip blade, snapped it closed and opened the honkin' big sheepfoot blade and the knife said "keep goin' buddy, lets go cut; lemme say "free at last"".
    pics below c/w 858 and 8OT
    I*XL 4 7/8ths" long; 11/16ths" thick; weight 170.6 grams
    858 4 5/8ths"/ 11/16ths"/132.2 grams
    8OT 3 15/16ths"/9/16ths"/82.1 grams
    also included a small metallic/paper card of "Congratulations from Schrade Cutlery Company of Ellenville, New York"
    i was the sole bidder; everybody sleeping ? i think it's so different, ya gotta have one. now i'm finally gunna get outside and CUT. no more Mr. Mint. roland
    Last edited by rprocter; 02-03-2008 at 06:50 PM.

  7. #27
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    yup shes a big beauty.
    Please dont show that last picture to Santa. He thought Rudolph was just on vacation>..
    I've gotten that dreaded furniture disease. That's when your chest is falling into your drawers!

  8. #28
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    G'Day Roland,I wasn't sleeping mate I already have 3 of them and know how good they are. Anyone that suggets it is not one of the better built Schrades hasn't seen one.The original issue price at $100 back in 79/80 would indicate the build quality. The original poster for this knife is shown on my previous page photos.
    Good buy mate.
    Its a bit like the Lake and Walker, Barnett, Kious and Schrade Rodgers collaboration knives,once people see the quality they will want one particularly the upmarket Lake and Walker and even the normal issue. I wont be competition there either I think I had about 20 last count! Hoo Roo

  9. #29
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    thanks Larry. i don't recognize any of those names. not in BRL either. would you consider elaborating a little ? (only a little if the're not Schrade; don't wanna upset anybody). roland

  10. #30
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    All beautiful lovely Schrade mate. I'll do another photo shoot with all the Schrade collaboration knives in one photo they are delicious.I dont think I have ever seen a photo with them all in one frame including both Lake and Walkers,D'Holders,Rodgers changer blade,Kious Demascus Congress style,Loveless <I have 3 MIB> the magnificent futuristic Barnett,and I even have several Schrade Jernigan pouches alas without the knife..but does anyone have the knife????Seen the poster for it but never seen the real deal. I guess both Warren Whittlers might fall into the collaboration heading as well. Have I missed any of the collaborations anyone can think of?? and I will include that in the photo as well. Hoo Roo

  11. #31
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    I think we still have more research to do around this!

    A comment made in "My latest Schrade" thread made me look into this connection again and I think there are still mysteries involved that have no clear answers as of yet.

    I waded through all the threads on the Schrade/I*XL connection but I'm still not 100% convinced we know where all the knives were made.

    This thread has lots of info: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...ght=Wostenholm. The most direct sources of info are Phil Gibbs [and the experiences of his father Tony at Wostenholm(?)] and Sebago (Jim Taylor) who worked at the Richards factory at the time.

    To quote Sebago:

    "The Schrade/I*XL knives were made at the Richards of Sheffield, factory, Moore St, (not Morse St,) This was in 1980/81. Five patterns were made and the bolsters were stamped (hallmark fashion) S W (head device) 0. The zero would indicate 1980 production. The S W would indicate Schrade / Wostenholm. The patterns were; Three different size lockbacks (White micarta. Stag and Red Bone, as well as a three blade stockman in Red bone and a three blade canoe in Stag."

    To quote Phil Gibbs:

    "Regarding the IXL Schrade knives, the lock backs were made at Camillus, sent as skeletons to Sheffield where they were hallmarked on the bolsters, the handles were added, & the knives were finished. I believe it was a set of 5 knives, 2 Camillus, 2 Schrade & 1 Wostenholm."

    The original 1981 Schrade I*XL flyer clearly states the five knives are "Hand crafted in Sheffield England": http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r....ges/IXL-11.htm

    Here's how I interpret these statements:

    1. If Phil Gibbs remembers lockback skeletons being made at Camillus then I take it as fact because his Dad (and maybe Phil as well) was at Camillus at the time. Also the lockbacks look just like Camillus patterns. This is backed up by CAMCO as well.

    2. If Sebago says "The Schrade/I*XL knives were made at the Richards of Sheffield, factory, Moore St, (not Morse St,) This was in 1980/81. Five patterns were made..." then I tend to accept that as fact as well because he was at the Richards factory at the time making him a pretty reliable source.

    My questions/thoughts:

    1. Phil Gibbs said he "believed" it was a set of five knives. We know first there was the giant stockman then the release of the other 5 knives that make up the "Master Set". There were also 5" SFO/Limited Edition Camillus-like lockbacks with the I*XL branding such as this one in post 28 in this thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...?highlight=ixl. I have also seen these large lockbacks as an Alberta Anniversary LTD in natural stag.

    This makes at least 7 different patterns branded as Schrade/I*XL not five as Phil recalls.

    It seems well established the original giant stockman was an English knife so lets move on about that one...

    According to Phil Gibbs the set has "2 Camillus, 2 Schrade & 1 Wostenholm". What does that actually tell us? The "2 Camillus" are lockbacks because that is what Phil is speaking to. Problem is that leaves three more knives to figure out. Another problem is that there were three different lockbacks in the set not two so if Camillus made all three lockbacks we are only left with the canoe and the bone stockman. Now supposedly these must be Schrade skeletons and we are left with a mystery as to which one was the Wostenholm.

    This is problematic to me. I believe this proves to us Phil may be remembering incorrectly in some way. 30 years ago was a long way back so that's not unexpected. What is the "1 Wostenholm" he refers to? Is it the original giant stockman because that's not part of the 5 knife master set. Which are the "2 Schrade" knives? The stockman and canoe perhaps?

    We must keep in mind that Sabago was not at Camillus and Phil was not at Richards. Was Phil at Camillus when his Dad was in '80-'81 or is this info is second hand? CAMCO confirmed that lockback skeletons were made at Camillus for finishing in England but he never produced the paperwork so exact dates are still missing

    I think it's possible that all 5 knives in the very first master sets hallmarked as 1980 (not 1981) were fully crafted in England. That seems to be what Sabago remembers. Maybe Schrade management found it too expensive to do it this way and subsequently made a change to producing the lockback skeletons at Camillus. This would fit with what Phil remembers as well.

    I think it's possible that the bone stockman was a Schrade or Wostenholm skeleton and the canoe is in the same boat. We have not established what
    ""2 Camillus, 2 Schrade & 1 Wostenholm" means and really because of the tentativeness of any "I believe" statement I'm not sure we can draw any firm conclusions at all from what Phil said other than the fact that some lockback skeletons were made at the Camillus plant for finishing in England.

    To me the origins of the bone stockman, stag canoe and perhaps the very earliest lockbacks are still vague. Any of these still might be Schrade or Wostenholm skeletons. I hate it when I muddy clear waters but there are contradictory and ambiguous statements all over the place when you start going deep into what has been said.

    I'm hoping Phil Gibbs will chime in again to clear this up...
    Last edited by Dave Thinkstoomuch; 06-04-2012 at 03:40 AM. Reason: corrected a couple errors

  12. #32
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    Phil Gibbs worked at Camillus during that time. His father, Tony did not ever work at Camillus or any other U.S. cutlery that I am aware of. Phil Gibbs and Tom Williams are first-hand sources for information on these knives.
    "A knife in a mans hand is as precious as a diamond necklace on a womans neck" Felix Mirando

    As the great Andrew Martin once said "One is glad to be of service".

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Codger_64 View Post
    Phil Gibbs worked at Camillus during that time. His father, Tony did not ever work at Camillus or any other U.S. cutlery that I am aware of. Phil Gibbs and Tom Williams are first-hand sources for information on these knives.
    Sorry Codger but you are remembering incorrectly.

    In post #22 of the thread I linked to above (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...ght=Wostenholm) you yourself said:

    "I might have more correctly stated that Phillip Gibbs family had been connected with Wostenholm, and had also been in the cutlery business for generations. (i.e. Phil was not the first of his family to be associated with the cutlery trade). I suppose I really need to ask Phill himself about this part of the history.

    Thanks for the clarification Mr. Taylor.

    Codger "


    Then in the very next post (#23) Phil Gibbs did immediately appear with his answer to you:

    "Hi Jim/Codger!

    My Father, Tony Gibbs, was hired by Albert Baer right after he acquired the Wostenholm group.

    After several years there, his opinion on the logical direction strategy of the Company differed with Albert Baer's, so he resigned & left the cutlery business.

    Regarding the IXL Schrade knives, the lock backs were made at Camillus, sent as skeletons to Sheffield where they were hallmarked on the bolsters, the handles were added, & the knives were finished.
    I believe it was a set of 5 knives, 2 Camillus, 2 Schrade & 1 Wostenholm.
    In my opinion they were well fitted & finished knives. "

    In post #25 you then respond with:

    "Thankyou for setting me straight Phil! Well, I had one or two details partially right anyway. Of course, partially right is still wrong, right?

    Codger"

    That was the conversation.


    Phil's response has been recalled as meaning all the I*XL were Camillus which is clearly not what Phil said and it is straight from him that his father Tony Gibbs was a big-wig at one of the Baer companies (most likely Wostenholm itself, but this is somewhat unclear) hired by Albert Baer himself right when all this was going on and left right after this expensive experiment failed.

    While I sure do appreciate the vast amounts of knowledge you share with us on a regular basis I'm afraid on this one you are remembering incorrectly. I know not everyone wants to autopsy the long BRL thread but I did and Phil Gibbs did indeed say said there were 2 Camillus, 2 Schrade and one Wostenholm in the 5 piece set. Why we have taken it to mean they were all Camillus is what is stumping me. That's not what he said!!!

    I do see Mr. Gibbs as a very credible source (as to what went on at Camillus but not quite as first-hand at Richards, he wasn't there) but no one really seems to have read what he posted. I'm trying to fix that and I have invited Phil to ring in again with some further clarification. I hope he does...

    I'm not trying to be difficult or to present myself as smarter than anyone else and frankly it doesn't really matter to me who made what but if we are going to present things as fact we should be sure they are facts and I haven't been able to find one reputable post on the Wostenholm-Schrade connection on all of Bladeforums that says that all IXL-Schrade were made by Camillus but that is what we are all being taught...and it's likely completely wrong. Phil says Schrade made two and I for one would like to know which ones they were.

    Also Sebago (Jim Taylor) worked at Richards at the time and he remembers that in 1980-81 they were making these knives at that factory and that is first hand too. I quoted it. Why ignore that? He sure seems to be the best source in that thread as to what was made in England. If you don't see him as credible please explain why.

    Here's the Jim Taylor quote again ""The Schrade/I*XL knives were made at the Richards of Sheffield, factory, Moore St, (not Morse St,) This was in 1980/81. Five patterns were made and the bolsters were stamped (hallmark fashion) S W (head device) 0. The zero would indicate 1980 production. The S W would indicate Schrade / Wostenholm. The patterns were; Three different size lockbacks (White micarta. Stag and Red Bone, as well as a three blade stockman in Red bone and a three blade canoe in Stag."


    Sorry to be such a long-winded hard-a$$ but you gotta know I mean well!

    Super-friendly-humble-pain-in-the-a$$-Dave-really-does-think-too-much-sometimes
    Last edited by Dave Thinkstoomuch; 06-04-2012 at 03:42 AM.

  14. #34
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    I don't know excrement from one brand of shoe polish in this matter, but I can tell you that the three blade stockman in this series doesn't even remotely resemble any of the stockman knives I have seen from Schrade OR Camillus. And the giant 4 7/8 inch bruiser doesn't seem to have an analog in the United States for any time in our history from ANY company that I AM AWARE OF (note disclaimers). Every proportion on either of these knives is different than the tooling we are used to seeing. I would say the same thing for the lockbacks and canoes, but I have never actually held one. Cheerio.
    Always looking for larger Schrade Cutcos, cattle knives & lovely old bone.

  15. #35
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    Lol! I don't think I said what you think I said!

    You said:
    If Phil Gibbs remembers lockback skeletons being made at Camillus then I take it as fact because his Dad (and maybe Phil as well) was at Camillus at the time.
    And I said:
    Phil Gibbs worked at Camillus during that time. His father, Tony did not ever work at Camillus or any other U.S. cutlery that I am aware of. Phil Gibbs and Tom Williams are first-hand sources for information on these knives.
    I did not state which knives were made where by whom. I simply pointed out the Tony never worked at Camillus and that Phil did. Both were hired by Albert Baer. To work at seperate companies he owned, one in New York and one in England. Phil and CAMCO (Tom WIlliams) are primary sources for info on these knives. They saw them and held them as they likely passed back thru Camillus when reimported/imported for sales here in the U.S. Did Camillus inspect and package them? Dunno. It seems possible since Phil states that he is familiar with the quality of those knives. I take it that he meant the finished knives of all patterns, not just the two Camillus skeletons sent to England for finishing. Ask Phil and Tom Williams.
    "A knife in a mans hand is as precious as a diamond necklace on a womans neck" Felix Mirando

    As the great Andrew Martin once said "One is glad to be of service".

  16. #36
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    Thanks Michael, I will keep digging and try and sort this out.

    Calvin, yeah it's the BS60 that I really want to pin down. It looks very different to me too.

  17. #37
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    I recall hearing that the skeletons (lockbacks) were indeed sent to England where the handles were glued on and finished. Problem was that when the knives arrived stateside most of the handles had fallen off!! They then had to be pinned on here, with I'd imagine a LOT of colorful language. I'll have to look into this.

    Eric

  18. #38
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    Okay, there were three lockbacks that were made as skeletons at Camillus, which were sent to England for handles, hallmarks, and finishing, as Phil stated. The handles were glued on, bolsters were hallmarked, knives were finished, and then all were shipped back here. By the time they arrived a LOT of the the handles had fallen off, resulting in the center pin in the skeleton having to be drilled out and a new center pin installed through the re-glued handles to hold them in place. This wasn't done to all of them, mainly it was the two smaller knives, and subsequent orders had better glue applied, or were simply done as standard pinned construction.

    The big stockman (Dave says it's UGLY!!), canoe, small stockman were all Wostenholm construction.


    The books previous to the sale were cooked there also

    Eric
    Last edited by ea42; 06-08-2012 at 03:10 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ea42 View Post
    Okay, there were three lockbacks that were made as skeletons at Camillus, which were sent to England for handles, hallmarks, and finishing, as Phil stated. The handles were glued on, bolsters were hallmarked, knives were finished, and then all were shipped back here. By the time they arrived a LOT of the the handles had fallen off, resulting in the center pin in the skeleton having to be drilled out and a new center pin installed through the re-glued handles to hold them in place. This wasn't done to all of them, mainly it was the two smaller knives, and subsequent orders had better glue applied, or were simply done as standard pinned construction.

    The big stockman (Dave says it's UGLY!!), canoe, small stockman were all Wostenholm construction.


    The books previous to the sale were cooked there also

    Eric
    Thanks so much for clarifying what was made where, Eric. Thanks to Dave Swindon as well for taking the time to discuss this with you.

    The BS60 in my pocket now knows it's roots and when folks ask I can tell them who made it. Same for my Heralds of the Sea quartet.

    This forum is great!

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