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Thread: Fallkniven "Laminated" Steel ???

  1. #1
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    Fallkniven "Laminated" Steel ???


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    Anybody know what the "laminating" process is???

    In one of the knife tests the blade on an A1 didn't break off cleanly (like every other knive they test!), but it did "delaminate".

    http://www.knifetests.com/

    Also, they seemed to think the edge was a little brittle, so it tended to chip easily.....

  2. #2
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    What do you mean by the question? Laminated steel is simply steel that's been... uh, laminated. Different types of steel with different properties 'sandwiched', typically to create a knife that has a hard edge that stays sharp longer, and tough sides of softer steel so the knife doesn't snap apart at the smallest sign of lateral pressure. The technique was already used by Vikings.

    I like the laminated VG-10 Fällkniven uses. The sides scratch easily, and the edge chips easily if you for some reason feel like pounding metals or rock with it, but otherwise the knife takes a beating and stays sharp a good while, and above all cuts well.

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    What I am looking for is physical/industrial process that they use to create the lamination???? Do they stack thinner pieces of the metal and hammer it or just what??? Is it "folded", like a Japanese sword?

    The F1, S1, A1, for example are all VG10 both edge and sides so they are laminating layers of the same steel, unlike the A2 which has a VG10 edge and 420J2 sides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reconranger View Post
    What I am looking for is physical/industrial process that they use to create the lamination???? Do they stack thinner pieces of the metal and hammer it or just what??? Is it "folded", like a Japanese sword?

    The F1, S1, A1, for example are all VG10 both edge and sides so they are laminating layers of the same steel, unlike the A2 which has a VG10 edge and 420J2 sides.
    Peter, the owner of Fallkniven, has confirmed that the F1, S1, A1 are indeed VG10 cores laminated with 420J2. The only laminate I know of that they don't use a 420J2 outer steel is the 3G which is a SGPS core and VG2 for the outer laminate.
    As for the way they laminate it, that's most likely proprietary. It was originally done by folding over a piece of metal into a U shape and sandwiching the core inside of it and then forge welding. Hope that clears up the confusion some.


    Gautier

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gautier View Post
    Peter, the owner of Fallkniven, has confirmed that the F1, S1, A1 are indeed VG10 cores laminated with 420J2.
    That is not what their web site says!!! It says "VG10 laminate", with no mention of 420J2! The A2 does however mention 420J2.

    If it is true, they are missing a great advertising opportunity here!
    Last edited by reconranger; 09-25-2008 at 04:01 PM.

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    Website confirms the A2 has 420J2 outside, and VG10 innards. I don't know why unless stated otherwise they would use another laminate in similar knives. It seems most reasonable that this would be their standard setup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reconranger View Post
    That is not what their web site says!!! It says "VG10 laminate", with no mention of 420J2! The A2 does however mention 420J2.

    If it is true, they are missing a great advertising opportunity here!
    I don't think most buyers of Fällkniven knives particularly care what the knives are laminated with. But I assure you, all the VG-10 laminated Fällknivens have sides of 420J2. You can always ask Peter if you'd like, his email is given at the Fällkniven web site. It would be pointless to laminate VG-10 with VG-10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elen View Post
    It would be pointless to laminate VG-10 with VG-10.

    Not at all! The Japanese swords were folded and hammered over and over and over again upon themselves....one metal. This creates multiple "layers" that are way way stronger than the homogenous metal could ever be. This is ancient technology......

    Think PLYWOOD here, vs a single layered piece of wood!

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    Quote Originally Posted by reconranger View Post
    Not at all! The Japanese swords were folded and hammered over and over and over again upon themselves....one metal. This creates multiple "layers" that are way way stronger than the homogenous metal could ever be. This is ancient technology......

    Think PLYWOOD here, vs a single layered piece of wood!
    Yes, it is ancient, as I said in my first post. The pointless part to it would be that VG-10 isn't as corrosion resistant or tough as soft 420J2. So, by using 420J2, you get a knife that resists corrosion better and is tougher than a knife simply laminated with the same VG-10 steel. Or so I've understood it. Making these things isn't really my expertise.

    About how Fällkniven actually performs the lamination, you would have to ask Peter, I think. Fällknivens are made in Japan, so that's where they do the lamination, but I don't know how exactly it is done. Haven't really even thought about it before. Interesting stuff.

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    Thumbs up

    Laminated blades are made in a rolling mill. Three sheets of steel are hot rolled together bonding the three layers .Fallkniven uses 420/VG10/420 and VG10/SGPS/VG10 blades. VG10 makes an excellent blade but SGPS I consider a super steel similar to S30V.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by reconranger View Post
    Not at all! The Japanese swords were folded and hammered over and over and over again upon themselves....one metal. This creates multiple "layers" that are way way stronger than the homogenous metal could ever be. This is ancient technology......

    Think PLYWOOD here, vs a single layered piece of wood!
    The folding was done to refine the steel because of the primitive production process. It was made stronger by removing contaminants in the alloy. VG10 is a high quality and clean steel.

    If folded steel were stronger, then industrial application would use folded steel.

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    In addition to being folded, the traditional japanese swords were laminated with a hard skin for cutting over a soft inner core for shock absorbing (tamahagane construction). The soft core would only be exposed on the back of the blade, not at the sides. The Paul Chen/ Hanwei catalog gives a good brief discussion of this construction.
    Last edited by guyfalks; 09-25-2008 at 09:11 PM. Reason: oops

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by hardheart View Post
    The folding was done to refine the steel because of the primitive production process. It was made stronger by removing contaminants in the alloy. VG10 is a high quality and clean steel.

    If folded steel were stronger, then industrial application would use folded steel.

    I believe this is correct. In The Wealth and Poverty of Nations, the author mentioned that western metallurgy had a better process for mixing and purifying the components for steel, so the multiple folding process the Japanese used to make their steel was not needed.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by reconranger View Post
    Anybody know what the "laminating" process is???

    In one of the knife tests the blade on an A1 didn't break off cleanly (like every other knive they test!), but it did "delaminate".

    http://www.knifetests.com/

    Also, they seemed to think the edge was a little brittle, so it tended to chip easily.....
    This is standard technology for most Japanese knives (including Fallkniven) - almost all knives in Japan are laminated and they do not see any problems with it. That test goes way beyond knife limits so you should not really worry about this results.

    In Japan steel manufacturers provides metal to knife companies already laminated, so they just remove stock same way as in US.

    Thanks, Vassili.

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    The actual advantage in laminating a harder steel is in the production process. Laminated steel can be stamp to shape, think ak47 the assault rifle. versus homogenous that has to be laser cut.

    Laminates are also easier to grind, the grinding medium lasts longer for lower cost per grinded blade.

    IMHO homogenous blades are stronger and tougher. That is the reason older Fallknivens are selling for more in the aftermarket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kevtan View Post
    The actual advantage in laminating a harder steel is in the production process. Laminated steel can be stamp to shape, think ak47 the assault rifle. versus homogenous that has to be laser cut.

    Laminates are also easier to grind, the grinding medium lasts longer for lower cost per grinded blade.

    IMHO homogenous blades are stronger and tougher. That is the reason older Fallknivens are selling for more in the aftermarket.
    Well, I can't agree with that. And scientific testing (by the University of Lulea, Sweden) proves laminated Fällknivens can take more lateral pressure before breaking than non-laminated older Fällknivens, so there the laminated models are notably more durable than the old ones. Since both the laminated and non-laminated models have the same edge steel of VG-10, both models will have exactly the same edge strength and toughness - the non-laminated certainly isn't tougher or stronger in that sense.

    The reason why the older Fällknivens are selling for more is that they're not producing them anymore.

  17. #17
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    Laminated is more flexible, not so prone to lateral breakage. But they take a permanent bend at lower force. Imagine praying a door open, the homogenous will either open it or break, while the laminate will iether open or take a permanent bend but at a lower force.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kevtan View Post
    Laminated is more flexible, not so prone to lateral breakage. But they take a permanent bend at lower force. Imagine praying a door open, the homogenous will either open it or break, while the laminate will iether open or take a permanent bend but at a lower force.
    Exactly so, but I would rather have a bent knife that still cuts and is in one piece than a broken knife that has fallen apart to multiple pieces.

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    Want to know more?

    Visit Takefu Special Steel Company.

    http://www.e-tokko.com/eng_index.htm

    It's been posted here half a dozen times, before.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elen View Post
    Yes, it is ancient, as I said in my first post. The pointless part to it would be that VG-10 isn't as corrosion resistant or tough as soft 420J2. So, by using 420J2, you get a knife that resists corrosion better and is tougher than a knife simply laminated with the same VG-10 steel. Or so I've understood it. Making these things isn't really my expertise.

    About how Fällkniven actually performs the lamination, you would have to ask Peter, I think. Fällknivens are made in Japan, so that's where they do the lamination, but I don't know how exactly it is done. Haven't really even thought about it before. Interesting stuff.

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