Fit and Finish - A Long Story

[pj551016]

Who cares about Gov. Contracts? SEAL Team6/DevGru can use whatever they want. It does not have to be issued. The fact that Mr. Emerson actually KNOWS the guys in the Teams, because THEY have gone DIRECTLY TO HIM to get knives made for them, is more than enough to believe that yes, he actually does know what they had with them for knives. One of the SEAL Teams actually uses Emerson's "Lethal Edge" Skull logo as their insignia........

Excuse me, but i don't see how your argument is an answer to mine.
I don't care who uses what. What i was talking about was how misleading this thread along with many other Mr. Emerson's threads are for suggesting that EKI knives are THE "go to" knives for soldiers, and that other brands fail the soldiers but EKI knives never do.
There's nothing that makes Emerson bold in this respect. They are just simple normal liner lock folders with 3mm stock blade and sub-par f/f that go for $160 (on average), although the ergonomics and blade designs are awesome, so is the wave feature. EKI knives are used by soldiers, so are many knives made by numerous other brands,period.
Mr. Emerson may have closer personal connections with the SF community, but i really don't see how that makes his knives superior.

[wolfmann601]

Some people just do not have to bullshiit, Ernest Emerson does not need to bullshiit, embellish, tell tales or make up stories.

There is nothing that he has written here that contains any bullshiit, I know what he says to be the truth.

And he certainly does not give a flying F**k who believes him or not, he has done more and seen more than most will ever experience, even in a movie theater!!

And I don't personally like his production knives, I only like his custom knives and I have not been able to get one in the last 14 years so I gave up!!

But many many many truly bad-ass human beings have done amazing things while packing a knife made by Emerson.

[ez_rider]

Who cares about Gov. Contracts? SEAL Team6/DevGru can use whatever they want. It does not have to be issued. The fact that Mr. Emerson actually KNOWS the guys in the Teams, because THEY have gone DIRECTLY TO HIM to get knives made for them, is more than enough to believe that yes, he actually does know what they had with them for knives. One of the SEAL Teams actually uses Emerson's "Lethal Edge" Skull logo as their insignia........

Disclaimer: I own an Emerson that I very much like. Had the same fit/finish issues everyone mentions - either too tight, or too loose w/blade play, pivot screw wouldn't stay tight, grit in the pivot washers, etc. Took me 10 minutes to fix all of those issues, and I was already expecting to deal with them ahead of time. I do love the simplicity of the design, and the wave feature is IMO hands-down that fastest blade deployment of any folder, including autos. I think it's awesome as a mostly defensive, but still all-around enough folder for EDC. There are certainly better utility cutters available for less $$$, though.

That being said, I also know some Dev guys, known one my whole life and lived with him for a few years when I was also in the military. (I was not an operator or anything of the sort) Also had a few other team guys live in our house from time to time, so I'm somewhat familiar with them, but only as an outsider. I held a TS clearance at the time and worked in Intel supporting JSOC at times. The one thing I can say without any doubt is that SEALs do not talk shop with non-SEALs. Period. Especially the guys at Dev. Maybe some of the young bucks from the standard teams might talk a little shop to impress folks when they're fairly knew. (probably get hard checked by the older guys pretty fast for it, too) But the guys at Dev were beyond secretive, even with a fellow soldier holding a TS clearance. I don't know or care enough to google about Emerson to know if he was ever an operator, but I get the impression he was not. If he was, he may actually have knowledge of what their load out was. If not, there's not a chance in hell he knows definitively which individuals were even there, let alone what they carried. I did see team guys who carried CQCs (mostly Benchmade CQCs from what I remember, though), but they carried anything and everything, especially Dev, lots of Spydies, BMs, and maybe some Emersons from what I remember. But they get so much Gucci gear it would blow your mind. As a friend and roomie, I got thrown a bone here and there, blackhawk packs, goretex, bdus, etc, no blades, though. But it seems like every few months, they were all carrying some new blade, and as mentioned, they have a great deal of latitude when it comes to things like knives for load out. I'd think it's more likely the guys on Neptune Spear probably carried fixed blades for the most part, but it'll probably be 40 years before I find out IF EVER.

I don't buy into the slightly overstated claims by Emerson, but I still dig his knives and carry the Super CQC7 pretty frequently. I have zero doubts that his knives are ubiquitous among the teams, though.

Bottom line: if you're not a SEAL, it's extremely unlikely know what they carried, and your info is second-hand at best. If you are a SEAL, you're most likely not telling ANYONE that you even are one, let alone which missions you took part in and the load out associated with them. Seriously, those guys don't have time for nonsense like knife forums or give a $4!t about settling these discussions.

<I swear I saw the horse twitching his foot a little>

[Tostig]

Some of these discussions , arguments or whatever you feel comfortable calling them are like trying to sweep back the surf with a broom , useless. Eveyone tries in vain to get their POV across , some of those who fail start to get nasty in their frustration. Seen it over and over again. Which blade steel is best , which knife company is best.... Your knife isn't as bad-ass as mine because it's not made from XYZ , blah blah blah....

The above poster said

Bottom line: if you're not a SEAL, it's extremely unlikely know what they carried, and your info is second-hand at best. If you are a SEAL, you're most likely not telling ANYONE that you even are one, let alone which missions you took part in and the load out associated with them. Seriously, those guys don't have time for nonsense like knife forums or give a $4!t about settling these discussions.

and ain't that the truth ! The only folks who have time and/or energy to waste arguing who carries and uses what are folks who are not involved in any of it and most likely never will be. Some of you love to look or act the part though , hmm ?

I'm actually surprised to see this thread still going since no new points have been made and the same old arguments are taking place !

If you don't enjoy EKI knives then don't buy them. That's the jist of it. I'll close in saying that last week I dropped near $200 on a NIB knife from a very reputable company , made of top notch materials that was in pee-poor shape for something costing so much, and I like some of you do not have a lot of disposable income. That even left a very , very sour taste in my mouth but that does not mean I will damn the whole company or their future/past endeavours.

Have a good night and chill the hell out people.

Tostig

[Wunderbar]

When SEALs write books they they don't talk about the Benchmade knives or the Spyderco knives they carry. They talk about their Emerson knives.

Well? Again I'll ask which books? If you'd back up what you post maybe your statements would have merit.

[ssblood]

Dennis Chalker, another SEAL Team 6 plank holder uses them in his books.

On a side note, you should really do some research before arguing about something you know little about.

This thread is dead. Some people are not going to accept that Emerson has been make knives for SEALS for over two decades. He accepts their input and produces a product to their wants, desires and specifications. Soldiers will continue to buy his knives.

What any of us on this forum means nothing. People are going to buy his knives regardless.

[Wunderbar]

Dennis Chalker, another SEAL Team 6 plank holder uses them in his books.
What any of us on this forum means nothing. People are going to buy his knives regardless.

I just looked and found a huge list of fictional books, movies and video games containing Emerson knives. One reference was to the movie " Blackhawk Down". Jeff Struecker a former high school buddy and fellow Ranger was in Somalia at this time and was portrayed by actor Brian Van Holt in the movie. Jeff has never even heard of Emerson Knives. I don't find a problem with this, it is just a movie. Like I said before, I am a fan of Emerson Knives and I think it's cool to see an Emerson or any other reputable knife company's product in a movie. I just don't buy into the hype. Not trying to change anyones opinion on the subject I like to read others posts but will not be swayed by their opinion.
I would like to know how many knives Emerson produce per year. I read that they have about 25 employees. Maybe this is why their products are harder to come by.

[Isaeus]

The issue is Emerson himself. Read his posts and browse his bizzare website. Having done this, I conclude that he is a megalomaniac desperate for recognition and acknowledgement, and delighting in his I-have-insider-information-that you-don't status.

Emerson has fought in the ring, on the college football field, and on the professional baseball field--but not on the battlefield. There is of course no shame in not having served in the military, but Emerson's lack of veteran status is relevant, as his statement deriding another poster in this thread for not serving in the military makes Emerson a hypocrite. And his own constant references to associations with elite military units will never make him one of them; it only makes him a groupie at worst and a useful outsider at best. Even if Emerson had served in the military, such comments by him are unnecessary.

Also unnecessary are his self-aggrandizing and obsessive image-grooming. I have stated elsewhere that he is more talented and successful than I will ever be. I'm sure he can kick my ass. I just wish the guy were humble, because despite all of his impressive accomplishments, I have no respect for him due to his bloated ego.

Let's compare him with Sal Glesser, a person whom Emerson calls a friend. Mr. Glesser is not only humble, but he has gone so far as to create a "Sage" series of knives honoring the pioneering contributions of other knifemakers. So far this series has honored Michael Walker, Chris Reeve, and Blackie Collins. Mr. Glesser has also formally acknowledged Emerson by creating two knives that include his name in their titles: the Delica 4 Emerson Opener and the Endura 4 Emerson Opener. Here's what Mr. Glesser writes on his website when describing them:

"If knives could be created in the same way we choose players for fantasy football league teams, every hardcore knife knut would recruit features and characteristics they like best from different knife companies and combine them into their favorite knife. Spyderco will undoubtedly fulfill many knife knuts knife fantasy picks with the introduction of the Delica and Endura with Emerson's opening feature." My Endura 4 Emerson Opener has "Emerson Pat. #5.878.500" stamped on the blade.

So, Ernest Emerson, the reason these types of threads occur in your sub-forum and not others is not because people keep beating a dead horse but because you keep beating your own drum.

Cheers,
Isaeus

[Wunderbar]

Well said.

[Esav Benyamin]

The issue is Emerson himself. Read his posts and browse his bizarre website. Having done this, I conclude that he is a megalomaniac desperate for recognition and acknowledgement, and delighting in his I-have-insider-information-that you-don't status.

Silly. Read and browse, and conclude his psychological state? Insufficient grounds for the conclusion. Had you ever spoken to him in person, your conclusion would be more likely to match that of those of us who have.

The internet is inherently difficult to read for anything but fact. Even in deliberately composed literature, it is acknowledged to be difficult to show intent or emotion.

Stick to your opinions, but leave the psychology to professionals -- who get it wrong often enough themselves.

[Isaeus]

Greetings, Esav Benyamin:

Okay, poor word choices on my part. I deviated from my usual practice of simply commenting on people's noises and marks. How's this instead?—Many of Emerson's posts and elements of his website occur to me as nutty. I will provide examples if you'd like, although that would take a lot of time.

Perhaps I'd judge the guy differently if I met him in person. Emerson has written about himself extensively, however, and it would be just as silly to discount all of that stuff and suggest that face-to-face interactions with him are all that matters.

Interestingly, your statement above suggests you are confident enough to be the spokesperson for those who have spoken to him. Please tell me what that conclusion is, the conclusion of those of you who have spoken to Emerson in person. I also invite any commentary you have about any of Emerson's posts and his website.

Cheers,
Isaeus

[richstag]

Greetings, Esav Benyamin:

Okay, poor word choices on my part. I deviated from my usual practice of simply commenting on people's noises and marks. How's this instead?—Many of Emerson's posts and elements of his website occur to me as nutty. I will provide examples if you'd like, although that would take a lot of time.

Perhaps I'd judge the guy differently if I met him in person. Emerson has written about himself extensively, however, and it would be just as silly to discount all of that stuff and suggest that face-to-face interactions with him are all that matters.

Interestingly, your statement above suggests you are confident enough to be the spokesperson for those who have spoken to him. Please tell me what that conclusion is, the conclusion of those of you who have spoken to Emerson in person. I also invite any commentary you have about any of Emerson's posts and his website.

Cheers,
Isaeus

From what I have seen Emerson speaks with passion and conviction, and he does not worry about persecution from people to much. Having said that, I have spoken to him a few times for decent lengths of time and he is a true gentleman and very very humble and straightforward.

Not much feedback for you but some.

Kevin

[psops]

When I grab a plate of pizza rolls and a beer and sit down to play Call of Duty, I have an Emerson clipped to my pocket. When I actually need to cut something, I reach for my Spyderco.

All BS aside, I own several knives from several manufacturers; including two Emersons. Which knives have held up best to use / abuse over the years ? My $50 Spyderco Enduras.......

My Emersons won't take or hold an edge and the blades developped slop between the lock and pin within the first year.

My take away from this whole thread is that Emerson doesn't give two $**its about customer feedback and his fanboys would gladly buy a polished turd, so long as it had an EKI skull on it or some reference to SEALS / bikers with "bad intent".....

[MHGeckos]

fanboys would gladly buy a polished turd

It's funny you should say that since most spyderco's are hideous hunchbacks with "better fit and finish"

[ez_rider]

My take away from this whole thread is that Emerson doesn't give two $**its about customer feedback and his fanboys would gladly buy a polished turd, so long as it had an EKI skull on it or some reference to SEALS / bikers with "bad intent".....

I think he just does value customer feedback, just not from users/buyers like the avg bladeforums member. We're probably more like the avg 4x4/SUV owner who buys more than they "need", but have the means and desire to purchase what they want for the occasions they do need that extra toughness.

And he certainly does play up the specops connection in his marketing approach. I think it is slightly overstated, but only slightly. To say something like "None of those knives were present when Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was taken captive. And none of those knives were present when Osama Bin Laden was shot dead." is simply not a statement he can backup. From my limited but firsthand knowledge of Dev members, I challenge that EE does not know for certain which operators did or did not participate in the missions, let alone what they did not carry. Even if he has a TS clearance, he would not have "need to know" of that information and I contend that the guys from Dev are WAY too professional to brag to him about their participation. That being said, I know lots of team guys love and carry his knives and that there were certainly a few Emerson there. But he doesn't know what wasn't there.

If he's selling enough knives to meet his business goals, I can't really blame him for not spending more on production costs. Still, I dig his knives enough to own one or two (used), but for my use and $$$, I'd rather buy something a little better finished than amass a collection of his just because it's what SEALs use. But then again, I'm just an avg knife user/buyer like probably the majority of bladeforums.

[emel]

Just seen some "limited edition" Commanders in S30v for $350, this is almost the mainstream steel with most knifemakers for many years...anyway CRK also uses S30V in their $400 knives but then you get a full Titanium framelock with perfect fit and finish.

[cevtv]

And he certainly does play up the specops connection in his marketing approach. I think it is slightly overstated, but only slightly. To say something like "None of those knives were present when Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was taken captive. And none of those knives were present when Osama Bin Laden was shot dead." is simply not a statement he can backup. From my limited but firsthand knowledge of Dev members, I challenge that EE does not know for certain which operators did or did not participate in the missions, let alone what they did not carry. Even if he has a TS clearance, he would not have "need to know" of that information and I contend that the guys from Dev are WAY too professional to brag to him about their participation. That being said, I know lots of team guys love and carry his knives and that there were certainly a few Emerson there. But he doesn't know what wasn't there.

Maybe you need to read his follow up to this thread.......

[MHGeckos]

Just seen some "limited edition" Commanders in S30v for $350, this is almost the mainstream steel with most knifemakers for many years...anyway CRK also uses S30V in their $400 knives but then you get a full Titanium framelock with perfect fit and finish.

So you are comparing knives that have been in production for how many years to a very limited run (from what, '01?) Ever heard of some crazy thing called collector value?

[ez_rider]

Maybe you need to read his follow up to this thread.......

I did. Call me a skeptic, but I stand by my earlier statements.

I still own an Emerson, love it, carry it frequently, might buy another one down the road. Sounds like his company is doing great and is revered by exactly who he says are his target market. Why does he care what a bunch of doods on bladeforums think then? Dev members go way out of their way to eschew the limelight. So, name-dropping on a knife forum for the purpose of establishing his credibility among this group??? That, I don't get. Why bother?

[STR]

Regarding the fit and finish of Emerson Knives-



The thing about fit and finish is that, that is all it is, fit and finish. It has nothing to do with the function of the knife or the design of the knife.

Aside from all the other statements which I really can take or leave this one stands out to me as the most questionable. Fit and finish or 'belt time' is when I as a maker catch all the little things I missed. Its when I go over the knife from one end to the other. Its when I get intimate with it before it leaves my shop. If a bur or sharp edge is on a liner this is usually when I catch it. If its got a nick, metal missing, overhang of one or more places or if I notice a stand off not spaced right, a spacer not the right thickness or a washer missing or replaced incorrectly with the wrong one this is when I will notice it. Its rare any of these things happen sure but the point is that some of these things can indeed interfere with function and or use of the knife requiring that the knife be mailed back to whoever built it if they are missed. Not only an inconvenience but really not the kind of thing anyone likes to have to deal with.

While I appreciate your time here Ernest and I am certainly more enlightened by your spilling of all this info. The fact is I disagree with you about final belt time before the product leaves the shop. I am glad you reveal that these 'small' things mean nothing to you and that you took time to explain your philosophy. I question it but I see that you are at peace with what you do, and apparently most of your customers are fine with it and that you are happy selling them as they go together leaving the buyers to discover whatever you missed once its sold. Your post confirms my past decision to stop buying EKI products because I don't really care for these finish issues or the one side grind personally. I do respect you and wish you well though.

The other thing I want to mention is this. I've always kind of figured at least in my own mind that part of the 'higher cost' of buying your knives or Strider or other CA based knives was just part of the cost of doing business with a CA based company. I mean lets face it CA is a tough state on businesses so my thought is you pay a few $ more to get something from anyone out of that state. So from my perception that may explain part of the higher price tag for product from there. I've always liked 'underdogs' and routed for them just like my dad. For the longest time I supported smaller companies because they are large enough to serve yet still small enough to care. Much like you used to be Ernie. Now it appears you have come here basically saying you are still large enough to serve but also large enough to no longer give a hoot what your customers want and thats a bit disconcerting coming from you being the marketing genius you are. You can't tell me there is not a market for some randomly picked production folders off the assembly line, some even picked out by you and given a pimp or two personally! Hell, you can't get on an internet forum about knives anywhere that you don't see pimped Emerson knives all over the place so why not join the club and do something no other company could even offer and pimp some yourself and add some $ to the price tag!? If there isn't 1000 or more people ready to snag those up I'd be shocked and you kill two birds with one stone by satisfying some of those wanting some more finished out production knives. Seems to me this negative thread and topic could be easily turned into a positive. So, I hope I am just reading into it wrong and that it is not really how you feel but sadly it does appear to be what is coming across from you to me. Forgive the edit: but the wife was calling me to do some honey do's for her. To conclude now: When my friend Harry contacted you giving you the same thoughts he shared with me which prompted me to make him a "Chicago" carry folder before he got in touch with you, he shared his thoughts and perceived need for this folder and you responded with the CQC14. Its a wonderful thing you did and people love the knife responding in kind by buying it.

This was a positive response to a customer request when you were approached by Harry. I guess I expected nothing less from you here regarding F&F Ernie but it surprises some of us with your response and almost 'fighting tone' coming across defending your position. Obviously some of your customers, me included would like to see some 'exemplary' or further cleaned up products offered in your production line up. By that I mean knives with some belt time cleaned up above what is 'standard production', particularly when a custom blade is added to that model and seeing as its virtually impossible for everyone to share in the joy of one of your customs I didn't see where that was too much to ask. Suit yourself though and again I wish you and your company all the best.

Steve Rice AKA STR