Cold Steel's Kabar Clone

[Moosez45]

while we are comparing both brands...I put my Heavy Bowie next to my Trailmaster and, except for the coat on the HB, they could be grind twins from ricasso to tip except for the TM being a bit thicker/longer. Now, who made what first? ( not trying to stir the pot, I like both brands, just curious)

Dan Maragni



Moose

[zuluninja]

ok...so the guy worked both for cold steel and ontario...but what about the Heavy Bowie? that one is made by Ka-bar. I'm missing something, could you please shed some light on this? I enjoy knife history almost as much as collecting and using.

[Moosez45]

ok...so the guy worked both for cold steel and ontario...but what about the Heavy Bowie? that one is made by Ka-bar. I'm missing something, could you please shed some light on this? I enjoy knife history almost as much as collecting and using.

KA-BAR, and the Heavy Bowie is designed by Mr. Paul "Toooj" Tsujimoto. Who also worked with Ontario for years, and is the reason that the Spec Ops line handles, resemble the handles of the "Toooj" Knives, the HB, Grass machete, Warthog, Cutlass, and Kukri. Toooj designed the handles for both lines, plus, much more.

There are tons of designs floating around that are not "stolen" but inspired from. Toooj has been around the knife industry for decades (sorry Toooj, not callin' ya old, just statin' the facts. ), and has been an active designer for years. Along with a mountain of mettalurgical knowledge, Toooj has had a hand in hundreds of designs, and builds.

Go Toooj.

A little on Dan, from teh interwebz,

EMPLOYMENT
1988-2006 Head of Domestic Production for Cold Steel, Inc. Brought Cold Steel production to Alcas Cutlery Corp., Ontario Knife Co, Western Cutlery and Camillus Cutlery Co. Duties included overseeing every step and operation used in the production of Cold Steel knives from metallurgical examination of the incoming material to final inspection and packing. Developed Carbon V material/heat treatment, modified and improved the heat treatment to Cold Steel standards, established procedures and trained sharpeners. My position ended with the collapse of Camillus Cutlery Co. in June 2006.
1982-2006 Technical consultant to Cold Steel Inc.
1979-1988 Custom bladesmith specializing in high carbon, performance oriented knives. American Bladesmith Society Mastersmith rating and Voting Member of the Knifemakers Guild 1983-2003.

TEACHING
2005, 2000 and 1995-Founded, organized, directed, demonstrated and
lectured at the NEBG Ashokan Sword Seminars. Lectures included “Introduction to Swords”, “European Sword Technology”, “Physical Characteristics of European Cutting Swords 250 BC to 1200 AD”, “Medieval Sword Reconstruction” and “Violent, Bloody Death” a look at forensic archeology associated with edged weapons.
2003 Lectured on “Development of Blade Patterns from Laminated and Twisted Structures” and demonstrated pattern development using Fimo clay at the annual Timonium Ethnographic Seminar.
2003 Lecture/Slide Show “From the Celts to the Normans: Early Sword Development in Europe” and demonstrated European swordsmithing at the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts 2003 International Gathering in Sandy Creek, NY.
2003 Lecture/Slide Show on “Celtic Art” at Mohawk Valley Community College as part of the visiting lecturers series.
2002 Lectured and demonstrated at the ARMA Princeton Seminar on “What is a Real Sword”.
1976-1996 Taught Bladesmithing classes at Naples Mill School of Arts and Crafts, Peter’s Valley Crafts, Brookfield Craft Center and Penland School of Crafts.
1991-1994 Lectured on “Fighting Knife Design Concepts” and “Beating the Edged Weapon Paradox: Blade Construction Techniques Throughout Time and the World” at the Northeast Martial Arts Conference.
1983-1994 Organized, directed, demonstrated and lectured at the New England Bladesmiths Guild Ashokan Seminar.
1990, 1993 Demonstrated “Blade Forging and Heat Treatment” and lectured on “Basic Metallurgy” and “How Every Sword was Ever Made in Any Time and Any Place” at the Artist Blacksmith Association of North America Conferences.
1990-1992 Lectured on “Evolution of the Japanese Sword from the Kofun/Nara to the Edo Period”, “Evolution of Japanese Weapons and Warfare from the Kofun/Nara to the Edo Period” and “Functional Fighting Knife Design Concepts” at the annual Zen Do Kai Seminars in Cazenovia, NY.
1980-1982 Demonstrated blade forging and lectured on heat treatment at the NEBG Ashokan Seminar. Founding member of the NEBG.

PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT
1996-2007 Built a prototype commercial heat treatment set up using digitally controlled furnaces and an agitated oil quench. I have been running experiments with a variety of carbon and alloy steels and making and testing blades of these materials. All these experiments and processes are documented and metallurgically examined by Metallurgical Consulting, Marcellus, NY.
1998 Research trip to Europe (Italy, Switzerland, Germany and England) with Dr. Lee Jones. Examined swords from the Celtic period through the Renaissance in museums and private collections.
1996 Research trip to England with noted arms collector and co-author of “Swords of the Viking Age” Dr. Lee Jones. Examined swords in museums and private collections and met with international arms authority and author Mr. Ewart Oakshotte.
1993 Research trip to Japan. Met with Mr. Takuo Onoue, prefectual metallurgist and Japanese sword expert and swordsmith Mr. Kanemasa Oono.
1993 Completed Level One of the ASM Heat Treating Certificate of Achievement Program.
1992 ASM Course at Materials Park, Ohio “Heat Treating and Quenchant Techology” with Dr. George Totten and Dr. Charles Bates.
1991 Completed ASM Local Chapter Course “Stainless Steels”.
1988 Completed ASM Local Chapter Course “Metallurgy for the Non-Metallurgist”.
1985-1992 Studied Kali, Muay Thai and Jun Fun Kung Fu with Sifu Kevin Seaman.
1969-1971 Studied Three Weapon Classical Fencing with Maestro Oscar Kolombatovitch.

PROFESSIONAL MEMBERSHIPS
American Bladesmiths Society- Mastersmith Rating- 1983-2003
Artist-Blacksmith’s Association of North America
American Society of Materials International
Japanese Sword Society of the United States
Knifemakers Guild- Voting Member- 1983-2003
The Historical Metallurgical Society

Moose

[EarlFH]

Yet another reason to hate cold steel.

You don't need an excuse. You listen to a couple of people who don't like CS, and everybody chimes in like a church quire. Learn to think for yourself, and quit mouthing everyone else's opinions. This "I hate CS", is getting really old.

EarlFH

[zuluninja]

thanks moose, good stuff. I really like Ka-bars/Ontario/Beckers, and yesterday ordered a war sword and a classic USMC FINALLY after eyeballing it for years. BK7 and ESEE 4 will be next.

[crimsonfalcon07]

You don't need an excuse. You listen to a couple of people who don't like CS, and everybody chimes in like a church quire. Learn to think for yourself, and quit mouthing everyone else's opinions. This "I hate CS", is getting really old.

EarlFH

Other things that get old are people not reading the thread. You might be surprised to learn that most of the posts in this thread are people defending Cold Steel. Funny how people complain about Cold Steel haters, and yet there aren't that many of them out there.

Zulu, nice choices. Sure is good to have Tomars on board too now.

[zuluninja]

today I'm wearing my trailmaster at my hip and my spartan at the front pocket...so far so good, no complaints lol.

[econnofoot]

Seeing that this is a 'fighting knife' I've found it kinda amusing in some reviews I've seen on you tube of people complaining about it failing as a beater bushcraft knife... I'm not a big cold steel fan but they make a nice catalog.

[Big Bo]

Guys, imitation is the best form of flattery. We're very flattered.

Since the Marine Corps adopted the Kabar design, its been made by dozens of companies. During WWII, demand was so high, that no single company could keep production number high enough to meet gub'ment needs. Since day one, other folks have been making the design. Funny thing, same thing happened to a little Ol' Ugly pistol, known as the 1911.

Colt, SA, Remington, Singer, Ithaca, Kimber, and on and on.
Kabar, Case, Camillus, Buck and on and on.

No biggie. Where's that Cold Steel made at again?

I like to see USA on my knives, so, in my mind, no real competition here, just good steel, made by two different companies is all.

There does seem to be some "upgrades", but I like the look of the Original American Legend, myself. I do believe I've seen that blade shape before with a few subtle differences, though.



Just my thoughts.

Moose

A sensable person, thank you very much.

[Blindfredy]

Certainly looks better than a kabar and with a better cross guard which kabar's is a piddly cheap after thought. A I'm no fan of cold steal.

[crimsonfalcon07]

Make this thread go away please. No more necroposting!

[elchris123]

Ive handled one but never used one. The tang is in fact about 2.5 times wider than that of a kabar. And the flat grind is generally thought of as an improvement over a saber. I would say overall it is a better 'workhorse' knife. The cold steel is heavier, thicker blade, much bigger tang, and has a more aggresive grip, but I would still say the kabar is more elegant and makes a more practical fighter . . . In my opinion . . .

[Garandimal]

I was thinking along this line as well. Not to take anything away from CS and its questionable "designs," but Camillus also made a lot of fighting knives and people didn't raise a stink about duplication.

And they even got the grind right...

Wonder why KA-BAR later chose to adopt the steeper, "sabre" grind, and then put the original blueprint on the box it came in?

(no doubt above my pay-grade)

[sac troop]

The knife in question was designed by two U.S. Marine Officers working with several American knife companies in 1942.
Boker, Camillus, Case, Pal, Union Cutlery, and Robeson were all involved.
Case and Boker never produced any of these knives for the troops during WW2 but the other companies did. Union Cutlery put the name Kabar on their knives and that name became synonymous with the knife.
If we are to be fair as far as judging knife companies for making their own version of a popular design I would say that they are all equally guilty.

[HARD MF]

Well spoken moose. America.

[Swa0210]

+1 to what Jester said. There are only so many ways you can shape a knife and have it remain functional...

[CrimsonSnowman7]

I despise cold steels CEO lynn thompson or whatever his name is. Hes a a terrible example of a knife maker/designer.

[dramos1]

As much as Lynn Thompson annoys the crap out of me, Demko's redesigns/upgrades of some of their knives is great, I love my ak-47 and demko hit a homerun with the triad lock imo

[Alberta Ed]

Looks like a very sensible derivative -- bearing in mind that the K-Bar itself is a derivative. It should hold up well and perform like all CS products: cut.

[Moosez45]

Looks like a very sensible derivative -- bearing in mind that the K-Bar itself is a derivative. It should hold up well and perform like all CS products: cut.

Some what.

With over half a dozen makers out there, making them, and they still are called "Kabar", same way they are all "Kleenex's", stuff like that.

Honestly, after using and handling them, the Kabar 1095CV + heat treat has the Leatherneck beat, hands down.

Moose