Question regarding 110x18MШД and 110X18M steels.

[Gator97]

Hi All,

I've had 110X18M steel composition in the knife steel chart for over a year, and the source I've used was rosarmsusa page here - http://rosarmsusa.com/design.html
I did notice that English translation was not direct from the Russian, which would be 110X18MSHD, but I figured it was translation problem. Later on I was contacted by several individuals, and the info varied.
Some claim 110X18M is different from 110X18MSHD and other claim it is the same steel, but the composition I have is incorrect, specifically, Mo is not 3% but 0.80%. There's also 110x18 steel mention very often on many Russian knives sites, which is not listed anywhere in GOST standard, but as far as I understand it is accepted to be 440C equivalent.

I did some digging of my own and found few other sources, where they all have Mo 0.8%.
One of them is Rosarms Russian site here - http://www.rosarms.ru/index.php?aux_...8_110x18m.html
Here's another link, which has most detailed composition and references to corresponding GOST documentatoin - http://www.naneve.ru/articles/4/12.doc and that one also lists 0.50-0.80% Mo.

Now I am a little confused and I hope someone can clarify situation.
First of all, what is the correct name if all those names refer to the same alloy, 110X18MSHD? 110X18M? 110X18? Are they all referring to the same steel?
Second, what's the correct Mo content for each (if they are different)?

http://rosarmsusa.com/faq.html page states 110X18 is equivalent of Latrobe's BG-42, but other sources claim 110X18MSHD to be analog of 440C. Based on the compositions, 110X18MSHD is much more similar to 440C based on chemical composition. 110X18M I have from Rosarms USA has 3% Mo, but the rest of the composition is identical to other sources.
Was 3% Mo just a typo? or those are two different steels after all?

[Ravaillac]

http://rosarmsusa.com/faq.html page states 110X18 is equivalent of Latrobe's BG-42, but other sources claim 110X18MSHD to be analog of 440C. Based on the compositions, 110X18MSHD is much more similar to 440C based on chemical composition. 110X18M I have from Rosarms USA has 3% Mo, but the rest of the composition is identical to other sources.
Was 3% Mo just a typo? or those are two different steels after all?

This point often comes up.
Yes 110X18 differs in composition from BG42, and it somewhat looks like 440C with some "exotic" additional alloying elements like titanium and cooper.
Actually the things that makes it similar to BG42 is the production process. Both use an electro-slag-remelting process which improves material properties. Electro-slag-remelting was pionneered by the Russian, and Latrobe steel was one of the first western companies to emulate the process. It might seem misleading but if you look at Latrobe factsheet, they consider the process an important part of material quality so comparison is not completly undeserved.

http://www.latrobesteel.com/assets/d...heets/BG42.pdf

[Gator97]

Thanks, but in this particular case, I am more concerned with exact composition. Since I am the one responsible for the knife steel chart and the data it contains, I'd like to have precise info : I.e. exact composition and exact naming.

[Ravaillac]

In short 110x18 is a short for 1,1%C and about 18% Cr, which is bulk of steel, with small alloying elements additions. It's not a surprise 110x18 would be the unofficial short for the whole 110X18 family. I also guess 110X18M may sometime be used as a short for 110X18MSHD.
Confusing but seriously who'd want to spell 110X18MSHD all the time.

Some claim 110X18M is different from 110X18MSHD and other claim it is the same steel, but the composition I have is incorrect, specifically, Mo is not 3% but 0.80%. There's also 110x18 steel mention very often on many Russian knives sites, which is not listed anywhere in GOST standard, but as far as I understand it is accepted to be 440C equivalent.

http://www.rosarms.ru/index.php?aux_...8_110x18m.html
From this source 110x18M and 110X18MSHD are clearly different steels

First of all, what is the correct name if all those names refer to the same alloy, 110X18MSHD? 110X18M? 110X18?

110X18MSHD and 110X18M are different. 110x18 is probably aan unofficial short used by people to designate one of those or either, depending on context.

I did some digging of my own and found few other sources, where they all have Mo 0.8%.
One of them is Rosarms Russian site here - http://www.rosarms.ru/index.php?aux_...8_110x18m.html
Here's another link, which has most detailed composition and references to corresponding GOST documentatoin - http://www.naneve.ru/articles/4/12.doc and that one also lists 0.50-0.80% Mo.

Second, what's the correct Mo content for each (if they are different)?

Mo is rarely an essential element so exact composition wouldn't drastically change the steel.
Plus you may note Rosarms "design page" site only state "Mo<3%" so this still could fit the bracket.
You may also note that quite like AISI standards GOST standards are only general directions, with component brackets.

http://rosarmsusa.com/faq.html page states 110X18 is equivalent of Latrobe's BG-42, but other sources claim 110X18MSHD to be analog of 440C. Based on the compositions, 110X18MSHD is much more similar to 440C based on chemical composition.

First regarding the naming I wouldn't expect 110x18M to be widely different from 110X18MSHD, both would be variants of the same 1,1% C, 18% Cr stainless. 110X18MSHD would probably differ by some marginal (yet meaning full) alloying elements additions or differences in manufacturing process.

I'm not sure but answer might lie in this quote taken from rosarms russian website

Улучить свойства и служебные характеристики последней стали можно за счёт реализации дополнительных рафинирующих переплавов - электрошлакового (ЭШП) и вакуумно-дугового (ВДП), с соответствующей маркировкой: 110Х18М-Ш и 110Х18М-ШД.

which basically translate (google) into:

Seize the properties and service characteristics of the latter became possible due to the implementation of additional refining remelting - electroslag (ESR) and vacuum arc (TTP), with appropriate marking: 110H18M-SH and SM-110H18M.

So components would be the same and:
110H18M-SH would be the electroslag (ESR) version
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro_Slag_Remelting
and
110H18M would be the vacuum arc remelting (VAR) version
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_arc_remelting

Components are similar to 440C.
Process is similar to BG42 (BG 42 full name is "Lescalloy BG42 vim var", "VIM" standing for "Vacuum Induction Melting" and "VAR" standing for "Vacuum Arc Remelting" as in 110H18M process).

[Gator97]

Confusing but seriously who'd want to spell 110X18MSHD all the time.

I would, and whoever wants exact info would want it too. As you said yourself, this thing comes up often, ergo there are enough people confused with all that. French AFNOR names are much more complicated, so shortening them at will wouldn't really be a good idea..

http://www.rosarms.ru/index.php?aux_...8_110x18m.html
From this source 110x18M and 110X18MSHD are clearly different steels

May be, but it lists only 110X18MSHD, no word about 110X18M.

110X18MSHD and 110X18M are different. 110x18 is probably aan unofficial short used by people to designate one of those or either, depending on context.

I can't find 110X18M on any Russian forum, in any context..

Mo is rarely an essential element so exact composition wouldn't drastically change the steel.
Plus you may note Rosarms "design page" site only state "Mo<3%" so this still could fit the bracket.

I don't want to argue the importance of Mo in general, but the margin from 0.8% to 3% is huge for any alloying element. I have yet to see ANY official spec where Mo V, Co or any other alloying except Chrome has that range. Rosarms usa says >3% which I read as more than 3...

I'm not sure but answer might lie in this quote taken from rosarms russian website

Улучить свойства и служебные характеристики последней стали можно за счёт реализации дополнительных рафинирующих переплавов - электрошлакового (ЭШП) и вакуумно-дугового (ВДП), с соответствующей маркировкой: 110Х18М-Ш и 110Х18М-ШД.
which basically translate (google) into:
Seize the properties and service characteristics of the latter became possible due to the implementation of additional refining remelting - electroslag (ESR) and vacuum arc (TTP), with appropriate marking: 110H18M-SH and SM-110H18M.

I can read Russian, and this translation has the same problem, along the way, when translating from Russian to English, 110X18M-SHD became 110X18M. Google lost the SHD part of the name and prepended it with Sm. That could explain why 110X18M...

To add to the confusion, rosarms USA page here - http://rosarmsusa.com/design.html clearly states Russian name, 110x18MШД (110X18MSHD) and then lists English name as 110X18M, which I suspect is probably caused by the same google translation bug.

Bottom line is, after reading your post and going through the links again, I am more convinced that 110X18M is the same 110X18MSDH, and 3% Mo is just a typo. All other sources list 0.8%.
It'd be nice if someone from Rosarms clarified for us.

[Ravaillac]

I would, and whoever wants exact info would want it too. As you said yourself, this thing comes up often, ergo there are enough people confused with all that. French AFNOR names are much more complicated, so shortening them at will wouldn't really be a good idea..

Well, actually it happens all the time. Not everyone is a distinguished metallurgist, most people work with only a handful of steels, and there are plenty of elements that play limited roles or whose amount brackets are quite loose, so people end using "short names" because everyone assumes it's "the well known steel everyone uses" not "that other exotic steel that hardly get mentionned". Not necessarly intellectually satisfactory but this is how it works in practice.

[Gator97]

I understand that part. I just thought RosArms guys could clarify the issue, they're the ones using it and it's their pages too.

[kancler]

Number one - thank you all for bringing this subject up!

Rosarms and other companies are not using 110x18M steel... we are using 110x18МШД.

I agree with Ravaillac - English spelling 110x18MSHD is a little too much... So we decided to use 110x18 without any M or MD or MSHD, just too keep it simple.

Molybdenum part is a little confusing. In my sources sometimes I see 3% but I think it should be 0.8%... I will discuss it with manufacturer...

I still think that 11x18MSHD is an equivalent to BG-42 because of the production process.

[Gator97]

Kancler thanks for the update.
I'll update steel chart with relevant info.

[Neo]

All knives on Russianknives.com do feature 110X18M steel?
I'm asking because some dealers seem to offer these knives in 40X10C2M steel.

[kancler]

Yes majority of our knives are 110x18. Rarely we use EI-107 (ЭИ-107) which extremely close equivalent of 110x18. As of now we have only 110x18 in stock in USA