Why assisted openers and autos are a nogo for personal protection

[mercop]

Using IET locks don't matter. IMHO waved knives are a nogo as a primary defensive folder?

[wizzard1717]

Could you please explain why you would not suggest a waved folder for defense. Now bare with me I have no training or anywhere enough experience to debate the merits of a good defensive knife, I always assumed it would relate to how you trained or "style".
But would I be totally ass backwards if my thinking was this. I was looking at an Emerson gentleman Jim because the fact of the wave feature, thumb disk as well as the blade design.


Now because I do not have training I figured that if I was unlucky enough to be placed in a situation like that, the best I could probably do, if I could not retreat would be to go "sewing machine" and hope for the best.
My thinking was that the "wave" would be the first deployment option, and if something went wrong than the disk was a secondary option. Just an untrained brain thinking out load.
cheers

[Chris "Anagarika"]

If the wave functioned partially, pushing the disk might get you sliced on thumb as the blade is out but not fully locked up.

That's the issue I have with wave, even though I wave my knives.

[mercop]

I have been through this several times but realize it may be hard to find in this pile of stuff so here it goes.

When ever you try to accomplish two mechanical actions at once like deploying the knife from your pocket, and deploying the blade, the chances of failing to do both are diminished.

If you are wearing your waved knife strong side, you have to draw it using your finger tips on the end of the knife. Under combat stress you experience vasoconstriction (blood pooling into your thoracic cavity, and away from your extremities. When you loose blood in your fingertips you also loose tactile sensation or the ability to feel. Now you attempt to grip the knife you draw it out to the rear in attempt to deploy the blade using the wave. This puts the knife at the end of a very long pendulum...your arm. When you draw it to the rear centrifugal is created and we often see the knives go flying. If you manage to get the blade to deploy you need to establish a usable grip on the knife, again, with diminished blood flow and dexterity in your hands. If the blade fails to fully deploy, you now must also try to manipulate the thumb disk as you change your grip. Most people just attempt to whip the blade out...again more dropped knives.

Of course some carry waved knives on their reaction side, it is one thing if this is to serve as a back up to gun or another knife, not so much if it is the location of the primary defense folder. The reverse grip is very limiting, add the fact that it is in your weak hand, even more limiting.

The only way to pressure test this is with a waved folder. Have someone harass you with boxing gloves while you attempt to deploy the knife.

If you are carrying a waved knife for cutting limes for your Corona, any knife will do. Just avoid the mindset of many who carry a "tactical knife" and kid yourself that you will be able to deploy the knife under stress when some one is trying to kill you without training before hand.

The same is true of guns and knives, having a favorite and carrying it is easy, and truthfully using it is not hard if you train into your natural responses, what is hard is knowing when and how to deploy it under stress. This is the thing that few people are willing to accept.- George

[JParanee]

Good stuff George

[djjonny]

Imo a closed folder in your hand is of more use than a partially opened wave folder.

With a closed folder you can at least use your folder as an impact weapon safely without fear of the blade cutting you

[mercop]

Exactly. Attacking the Central Nervous System and Structural System with impact weapons is Combative Anatomy 101. Even better is to have a sturdy pen or flashlight in your hand. Allows you to counter attack and hopefully end the fight. If not it, it can earn you time and space to deploy your folder.

Part of the Primary Defensive Folder draw that we teach is drawing the closed folder into your hand. We do this for two reasons, one is that in that second deadly force is not warranted, two, you may not have time and space to deploy the blade. It would be wise to build these two situations into your training.

Deploying a folder whether open or not can change the dynamics of the fight. Everyone thinks they are the "good guy" and only protecting themselves. If you see someone with a closed folder in their hand coming at you, the case can be made for deadly force. The same goes for the other guy. Another reason to carry expedient impact weapons like knives and pens into your EDC.

Dealing with criminal and civil law is like sunburn. When you can't stay out of the sun, a wise person limits their exposure every way possible. Using the paradigm of Awareness, Avoidance, and Aggression, is part of this. Knowing when and how to use preemptive attacks can limit the violence on the part of the attacker, and reduce the need to use more on your part. A measured response just makes good sense.- George

Imo a closed folder in your hand is of more use than a partially opened wave folder.

With a closed folder you can at least use your folder as an impact weapon safely without fear of the blade cutting you

[Buffalohump]

Good stuff George! Interesting topic. I confess to having a fondness for side opening autos. Oddly enough, two of my favourites - the ProTech TR4 and BM AFO II - both come with built-in skull crackers. Which is one of the reasons I often carry them.

[Monofletch]

I do NOT practice "quick drawing" my EDC, but I can guarantee "if" the time comes that I ever need it to defend my personal space it will be open and ready for action!

I relate this to the one time I needed to use my dog spray (i'm a mailman)- here comes the pitbull out of the screen door. I had the dog spray in my hand and ready for him like a well trained NINJA. When I pressed the button the pepper spray trickled down my hand--didn't srpay an inch!!!

Murphy can be an S.O.B. at times, but you can't worry about it. Just know what you are going to do BEFORE it hits the fan!!

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Mercop, what is your opinion on waved knives?

I think he mentioned deploying the knife from pocket and deploying the blade from the handle is to be trained separately ...

Having waved my blades and some only have tip up option makes me think hard ... I do have occasion when it failed to fully open the blade.

[djjonny]

One other thing to consider in sd with wave blades is the intimitation factor should you have the chance
In this case I mean the opposite if you get it wrong and the blade only opens part way.

You'll be anouncing to your attackers you don't have a clue how to use your blade and potentially will have to go through with the fight.

[Black Knife]

Trying to deploy any weapon while being attacked is not going to work. You need both hands to deal with the immediate threat first before you can even think about reaching for your weapon. I am talking mainly about attacks with edge or impact weapons.

[mercop]

Trying to deploy any weapon while being attacked is not going to work. You need both hands to deal with the immediate threat first before you can even think about reaching for your weapon. I am talking mainly about attacks with edge or impact weapons.

What he said

[brandonc]

I hate when I cut stuff with my ZT0300 and it bounces of because of the AO spring...


Any folding knife can fail, however as long as you over come the closed retention most can be wrist-flicked open.

[mobilerd]

Why assisted openers and autos are a nogo for personal protection
Total BS. Any knife is better than nothing in a self defense scenerio. However I depend on my SP 101 357Mag if things get sticky.

[stabman]

Why assisted openers and autos are a nogo for personal protection
Total BS.

Have you tried getting an assisted opener or waved trainer into action during training? As in, while you are in the process of being hit?
It doesn't always work out so great.
Try things out for yourself. Don't believe what's on the internet just because it's there.
But also don't dismiss things as BS until you've tried it out, and tried it out more than once.

It doesn't sound from your post like you've tried it out. It sounds alot like an emotional, knee-jerk response.

But it after trying it out multiple times, under stress, while someone is trying with some deal of effort to punch you in the face, you find out that it works for you, then by all means go for it.

You might want to consider trying to deploy your (unloaded) revolver while someone tries to punch you in the face and foul the draw. It might be an eye opener.

[mercop]

Why assisted openers and autos are a nogo for personal protection
Total BS. Any knife is better than nothing in a self defense scenerio. However I depend on my SP 101 357Mag if things get sticky.

Thanks for stopping in and sharing you experience.- George

[Bowman1911]

I fight hand to hand for a living. Getting out, or deploying, a blade isn't even an option, as it ain't allowed. However, I still usually have one on me. I've been attacked plenty a times & the thought of using my knife has never even crossed my mind. Even though it hasn't been an option, I'd have to agree on the fumbling with a blade during attack thought as everytime I've been attacked my hands were pretty full with the psych pt. I was wrestling with. I've had 'em go after my pen, come at me with their dinner trays, pretty much anything you could imagine. Mercop, I'd like to take a look at your video some day. It might change my ways of thinkin', but where it stands right now, I'd have to point out the fact that if at all possible, you should never let a bad guy get within stabbin' distance! When I'm not in scrubs, I've always got a handgun on me.

[NightMare Silverado]

I've been rushed by dogs the last 2x's I took my husky out for a walk. I have deployed my ZT560 both times within what I feel was a good time. It's not an auto or assisted but IMHO opens the exact same as a flipper assist. Thankfully neither time the dogs actually attacked as the owners called them off.

[stabman]

I fight hand to hand for a living. Getting out, or deploying, a blade isn't even an option, as it ain't allowed. However, I still usually have one on me. I've been attacked plenty a times & the thought of using my knife has never even crossed my mind. Even though it hasn't been an option, I'd have to agree on the fumbling with a blade during attack thought as everytime I've been attacked my hands were pretty full with the psych pt. I was wrestling with. I've had 'em go after my pen, come at me with their dinner trays, pretty much anything you could imagine. Mercop, I'd like to take a look at your video some day. It might change my ways of thinkin', but where it stands right now, I'd have to point out the fact that if at all possible, you should never let a bad guy get within stabbin' distance! When I'm not in scrubs, I've always got a handgun on me.

Having worked security at a hospital and having to restrain psych patients, I wouldn't put that in the category of "fighting."
And I agree that using a knife on the psych patients would be a terrible idea.