Help me make a wise choice.......

[dawgs2323]

Other than Case, I have no experiance with traditionals, but I am looking at a custom. I have been looking hard at Todd Davidson, Erickson, and Menefee (Spelling?). My main question is are these knives built that much better than the Case knives? Not trying to dis-respect the makers, but my Case slipjoints have a lot of bladeplay and blades that are way off center, and this is just with general light cutting. I just want one that stays centered and locks up tight, a lifetime knife if you will. There are just so many makers, I don't know where else to look! I don't have the funds to buy multiples, want to make the right choice. This will be an EDC that I will have a Lifter's Leather sheath for. Thanks in advance for your help!

[Peregrin]

Any of the fellows you've listed, and many more, can make you an excellent knife that would last a lifetime. There's no comparison between an everyday production slip joint and a handmade slipjoint.

I don't think anyone here wants to make comparisons between the fine makers that post here. They all make excellent knives and the choice between one or another is many times just personal preference or a relationship that has developed.

I'd suggest looking through the posts on this subforum where the makers knives are displayed. Check out the comments from the knowledgeable, discriminating folk that post here. Find something you like and follow up with the maker to see if they can make something for you.

[supratentorial]

I'll second what Gary said. ^^

[dawgs2323]

Thanks for the reply, My goal with this knife is to be something personal to me that can eventually passed own to my son! I don't want to compare the customs to productions, just trying to understand the big differences as Case is all I have. I know knives fro Mayo, Burchtree, Emerson, but traditional customs are a whole new world!

Any of the fellows you've listed, and many more, can make you an excellent knife that would last a lifetime. There's no comparison between an everyday production slip joint and a handmade slipjoint.

I don't think anyone here wants to make comparisons between the fine makers that post here. They all make excellent knives and the choice between one or another is many times just personal preference or a relationship that has developed.

I'd suggest looking through the posts on this subforum where the makers knives are displayed. Check out the comments from the knowledgeable, discriminating folk that post here. Find something you like and follow up with the maker to see if they can make something for you.

[dawgs2323]

I see a lot of "Lanny's Clip" variations, is that a popular EDC? Also, I generally see only handle lengths, what is the reasoning behind that? I usually EDC a small Sebenza and really don't want anything bigger than that.

[LKJW]

I'll second what Gary said. ^^

Third. I only have two customs, but a custom knife is a whole different animal than a production knife like a Case. They both may work great, but a custom (you picked fine makers...I'd love to have MANY of their knives) is as close to perfect as a human can accomplish. That's why they cost so much. I don't go for customs much, I like old USA production knives, but think of it this way...Case is a Toyota Camry...great car...a custom is a Bentley.

[kamagong]

Custom slipjoints are better than your typical Case, have no doubt about that. Whether or not it's worth it is a decision that each person has to make for himself.

Customs utilize better blade steels, with better heat treatment. When it comes to fit and finish, they're in a different league. They have superior blade geometry, so they cut more efficiently. They even come sharper, for the most part. And they're pretty.



I suggest you do some research. Pictures can effectively convey the superlative quality of custom slipjoints, even if they pale in comparison to having the real thing in your hand.

- Christian

[mnblade]

Other than Case, I have no experiance with traditionals, but I am looking at a custom.

Just food for thought: Another (cheaper) option that would be a significant step up from Case in terms of fit and finish and materials, would be a knife from Great Eastern Cutlery. Even the top-end stag GEC knives top out around $150.

-- Mark

[Railsplitter]

Have you considered one of the Case/Bose collaberation knives? Great blade steels and excellent fit & finish. The Norfolk is my favorite but there were several patterns made. They have Tony Bose's "touch" yet they cost much less than a true Bose custom. This years' collab knife just happens to be a Lanny's Clip. Should be an awesome knife. It hasn't been released yet but it should be worth the wait.

Traditional knives are usually measured in closed length. It might seem strange at first if you are used to blade length measurements but I think it's better this way for traditional knives. They are most commonly carried down inside the pocket and handle length measurements give a better idea of how well the knife will ride in the pocket.

Nobody can really tell you which custom maker to choose. As previously mentioned, it's all about what you like and who's styles apeal to you.

Whatever path you decide to take, you can be confident that a custom or collab knife will meet your reqiurements for quality and longetivity.

The GEC's that Mark mentioned are superb knives too. They are very well made and should last a lifetime. Great knives to pass down to your son.

Good luck!

[argel55]

You don't want to forget Brett Dowell in the list. I get to handle the customs made by the makers you listed and the fit and finish and actions are all first class. You will find they will all cut better than a production knife.

[dawgs2323]

Thanks for all the replies, I have been using the search fuction all night! Answered alot of my questions! By the way, that Case/Bose Lanny's Clip is nice!

[markpmc]

Have you considered one of the Case/Bose collaberation knives? ...

I know it's not my thread, but thanks for the pointer. I've begun to save for my future Davidson wharni, with a bit of luck I'll be able to place an order by fall.

Mark

[Chief]

My main question is are these knives built that much better than the Case knives?

Yes. Not only built better, getting your knife in the exact dimensions / blade style / shield / handle material you prefer means a lot. However, as mentioned, Case / Bose annual collabs are really nice. If one has been (or will be) made in the exact configuration you want, you won't be disappointed.

My goal with this knife is to be something personal to me that can eventually passed own to my son!

With that in mind, whatever you choose, I hope you carry and use it for a long time before passing it on, don't just store it away. There is a beauty a knife can only earn / achieve by spending time in your pocket ... that is what makes it a true heirloom. My most valued knife is an old Case 6332 my Dad carried and used as long as I can remember. He broke the backside scale completely off, repaired it with epoxy, it's well used. Rarely carry it as I am scared of losing it ... he's gone now, so it can't be replaced at any price. Someday, my son will inherit the custom knives in the safe, but they are only $$$. I hope he looks at the the knives I carried and thinks about the adventures they have been on and values them for the use they proudly display. Knives that lived in the safe don't have the same meaning ... they can be replaced, they are only $$$.

Best wishes on your decision.

[richstag]

Other than Case, I have no experiance with traditionals, but I am looking at a custom. I have been looking hard at Todd Davidson, Erickson, and Menefee (Spelling?). My main question is are these knives built that much better than the Case knives? Not trying to dis-respect the makers, but my Case slipjoints have a lot of bladeplay and blades that are way off center, and this is just with general light cutting. I just want one that stays centered and locks up tight, a lifetime knife if you will. There are just so many makers, I don't know where else to look! I don't have the funds to buy multiples, want to make the right choice. This will be an EDC that I will have a Lifter's Leather sheath for. Thanks in advance for your help!

With a custom maker you will get a lot more. Start with just design, look into the differences in the mentioned makers ongoing threads. Then there is execution of the design. These makers put pride into there work and their NAME behind it. Then take material differences, better liners, pins, handle and blade material options. Then take superior heat treat into factor. There is no comparison.

With that said, GEC makes fine knives with SOME of the improved design features. You still are limited to material choices and heat treat and most importantly design.

Just my 2 cents.

[pinnah]

Crudely paraphrasing, Pirsig noted that quality is that which gives you peace of mind.

Truth be told, inexpensive used pocket knives from an auction site are perfectly functional and easily capable of lasting a life time, supposing you don't get something that's been kicked to death. Chances are you could find an old Camillus TL-29 for under $30 and use it till you die, no problem. Same could be said for a Rough Rider for less than $20. But, I don't think that's what you're asking.

IMO, custom anything is it's own deal. If you get peace of mind from a custom, no production thing is going to do. It's not about fit and finish or even performance, imo. It's about who made it and how they made it. No need to muddy up the waters with technical differences that really don't add up to much. Getting a custom just because it's a custom is perfectly understandable to me.

Regarding where things are made and how they are made, I think there are 4 basic groups: China (and the like), USA (production), Europe and Custom. All of them have fans. My tastes are pretty blue-collar. I like Wild Turkey 101 just fine. No need for scotch snobs turned bourbon snobs telling why their super expensive is better. I like old Ulsters, Old Timers, Bucks and Opinels. Production knives all. The issue for you is which gives you the most peace of mind. It's your pocket - your knife.

Regarding steels, I don't think anybody is going to defend lousy 400 series stainless. Beyond that, there are 2 schools of thought. One follows the ideas of modern knives and modern super steels that are "better". The other, I think, embraces traditional steels as a part of the traditional aesthetic. I'm in the latter camp. For me, a big part of the appeal of a traditional knife is the working/hunting heritage and a part of that is working with a knife whose design and materials have been proven well suited to the task after many, many decades. I spent many years as a bike mechanic and came away from that hating lousing tools but I'm equally suspicious of "pretty" tools that aspire to be more than they need to be. I feel that way about my knives too. They're plenty good and putting a super steel into a traditional frame would ruin the peace of mind for me. It's no longer traditional.

This is a very, very, very long way of saying that I think Case knives are just fine. It's not like you're going to wear them out. I do *NOT* look to Case for knives that lock up in any way though, loose, tight or otherwise. When I think of Case, I think slip joints. (Yes, they have a few liner locks.) For locking traditionals, I first turn to Buck.

[richstag]

It's not about fit and finish or even performance, imo. No need to muddy up the waters with technical differences that really don't add up to much.

Im not a snob and I don't have a problem using a production knife. I have to say I would completely disagree with these two statements though.

For me, getting a custom would be all about the fit and finish and especially the performance. The technical differences IMO are a huge part of the difference.

How would you explain technical differences not adding up?

[black mamba]

Check out this older thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...lipjoint+maker

[pinnah]

Im not a snob and I don't have a problem using a production knife. I have to say I would completely disagree with these two statements though.

For me, getting a custom would be all about the fit and finish and especially the performance. The technical differences IMO are a huge part of the difference.

How would you explain technical differences not adding up?

Kevin, fair question. I'm very heavily biased by my experience in the bike, ski, hiking and software business. I think there are 4 areas to consider:
1) Aesthetic Customization - Custom stuff gives you the ability to get something out of exactly the materials you want with exactly the look you want. No question on this. Custom and production are light years apart in this regard.

2) Custom Fit - This more of an issue with hiking boots, bike frames and software. Some people/organizations truly need something that is hand tailored to their specific situation to be able to perform. If you live in New England and hike, you've seen Limmer Boots. Last I heard the waiting list is well out over 3 years. If you have an impossible to fit body, you need to visit Limmer. But, we're talking about the tiny ends of the bell curve here, even with things as hard to fit as hiking boots and bike frames. Much less of an issue for knives.

3) Fit and Finish - In the 70s, it used to be that hand built bikes were far superior to crappy robo-welded bikes. By the mid 80s, robotics were producing more consistently brazed bike frames than production hand brazed shops. Custom makers still own the territory of pushing knives (or bikes or boots) well out into the land of art. But that's beyond mere fit and finish. To my mind, that's the territory of aesthetic customization (#1 above). Take a look at Victorinox SAKs, a knife I don't really care for. By all accounts, their highly automated production facilities are incredible and they put an incredibly consistent product. Very, very, very few custom makers can achieve and sustain that level of fit and finish at reasonable costs. Custom products are "bespoke" and unique. There are custom makers that do achieve high levels of fit and finish - don't get me wrong. But I've seen as much variance in fit and finish among custom stuff compared to what can be done with modern production that I consider this dimension to be a wash. It just depends.

4) Construction Durability and Performance - I work as an engineer so I'm going to be a bit dweebish on this. By durability and performance I mean really only those things. A knife needs to open, close, cut and stay together. There's very little hidden here in terms of the engineering basics of a folding knife - no real secret sauce. The OP noted the his Case has started to wobble. I would have to think that either he got a sub-par Case or (as many of us have done at some point in our lives) pushed a slip joint too hard. There's only so much the design of a slip joint can take, even if hand made by the most careful artisan. Let me put it this way, knives made of comparable materials and put together according to the same basic design are going to perform and last comparably. Putting yet another way, when I test or use the produced object, I don't see who made. I only see steel and other materials.


I should note that I think there's a deeper thing going on here. I see this particularly among cyclists who spend thousands on custom bikes but I think it's true more or less universally in our culture and that is the need to justify custom stuff in terms of technical performance. My sense is that this is rooted in a hyper-technical social ideal - sort of shared belief that one thing can be really better than another and that this is tied to cost. It's really almost required to justify any cost with that being tied to a corresponding improvement in technical performance. The problem is that modern production capabilities has pretty much removed that from the equation. To my mind, it's absolutely fine to pay for a custom product just for the fact that its handmade and beautiful. It's produced by an artisan and, really, that is enough. No mass produced thing is ever going to be the same as that. And that alone justifies the price.

Let me put it another way... I've dealt with people in many other contexts who said, I didn't get the performance I wanted out of production X so I'm going to buy a custom Y. Awhile later, they've not gotten what they wanted from the custom either because functionally there's really not that big of a difference. Aesthetically there is, but not functionally.

[black mamba]

The functionality of a slipjoint to my way of thinking has 3 points, listed in order of importance:
1) how well it cuts, 2) how well it opens and closes, and 3) how well it rides in your pocket.

1) The most important things in cutting are the blade geometry and the heat treatment. Both of these are GREATLY optimized in a quality custom slipjoint.
2) Opening/closing is somewhat aesthetic, but ease of use, safety and security are involved here too. Customs address these concerns as well.
3) Customs have smoother fitting of scales to bolsters, sunken joints, fewer projections to catch and wear at pockets.

I really don't think these points can be ignored. The only thing for the individual consumer is to weigh these improvements against the added expense to determine if customs are right for them.

[pinnah]

1) The most important things in cutting are the blade geometry and the heat treatment. Both of these are GREATLY optimized in a quality custom slipjoint.

Heat treatment is a stage of fabrication. On any given day a particular custom maker is capable of exceeding of what can be done by a modern production facility. Or not. Custom doesn't imply superior. It only does if the maker is particularly good at that part of fabrication and even when they are, the question is can they sustain that level of excellence year in, year out so that a customer can reasonably expect to get better-than-production quality. IME, that's a total crap shoot. Compare that to, say, Buck's reputation with their lowly 420HC. What percentage of custom maker do you think can regularly and consistently heat treat 420HC better than Buck?

In terms of blade geometry, I think this may be something of a mystical/religious area. For smaller knives, I'm a big fan of either flat ground or slightly convex blades (Opinels). For slipjoints and other EDC folders, what type of blade geometry are you thinking of and why do you think it's something that custom makers are better at?

2) Opening/closing is somewhat aesthetic, but ease of use, safety and security are involved here too. Customs address these concerns as well.

I'm thinking of all of the Buck 110/112s and 301 and all of the Schrade Old Timers out there in circulation. They open. They close. They stand up to reasonably hard use. Do you think there are custom makers that regularly and consistently produce more reliable and more durable knives in this regard? What is the secret? Special bushings? Different pin materials? I'll readily concede that you mind find marginally smoother operation owing to higher degrees of polish (or worse, depending on the day) with some customs, but in terms of basic functionality, safety and durability, better than, say a Buck 301?

3) Customs have smoother fitting of scales to bolsters, sunken joints, fewer projections to catch and wear at pockets.

I'm sitting here looking at my rather pedestrian mass produced Buck 500. The fit of the scales to the bolsters looks like it would impossible to improve. Yesterday, I carried my old Schrade 5OT. It's execution is really nearly perfect. I'm trying to envision ways that custom versions of these knives would improve pocket wear. Actually, I wear out my pants in other ways long before any knife has worn a hole in my pockets.

I really don't think these points can be ignored. The only thing for the individual consumer is to weigh these improvements against the added expense to determine if customs are right for them.

I totally agree with this statement. There is strong, strong appeal to customs. It's a classic cost/benefit issue. The benefits that customs clearly own are beauty and uniqueness. They are individualized and often stunning works of art that no production thing can match. That alone is worth the extra costs for some people. Like I said in my first post, quality is that which produces peace of mind and that differs for all of us.

Much much harder to sell the virtues of customs in terms of performance though.