Old vs. Modern - Tradiitionals only - an unscientific comparison and observation

[rprocter]

STeven, this is a first. We are almost agreeing. In my post i prefaced with "aside from the steel,". Yes the C/B collabs have superior metals to other commonly found Traditional folders, but the fit & finish is more or less on par.
The knives from China that i mentioned do have stainless steel bolsters, caps, & liners.
Have a look at my OP here for pictures: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...t=Texas+Ranger
roland

[brownshoe]

Roland, once again you unfarily trash the Case/Bose line.

"The Case/Bose knives are certainly very good but as a.s. says above, too many are sent out with unacceptable "issues".
I've been lucky. The 3 i have (Yukon, Norfolk, Tribal Spear) are all 'right-on'."

How can you say that "too many are sent out with unacceptable issues" WHEN EACH ONE YOU'VE RECEIVED HAS BEEN "RIGHT-ON". Are there really that many knife stores or Case/Bose collectors in Johnsons Landing Canada ("an unincorporated community, former post office and former steamboat landing on the east shore of Kootenay Lake in British Columbia"), for you to judge the quality of the whole line, including each one of the handle materials?

Just because some OCD knifenut on this forum posts greatly magnified "problems" (magnified in their mind and in their pictures) with his Case Bose that he couldn't afford in the first place, does not mean "too many are sent out with unacceptable issues." If there were too many unacceptable knives "for the price point", people would stop buying them and the Case/Bose line would have ended years ago.

[rprocter]

Brownshoe, i am the only knife collector i know of within a few hundred miles of my home. For reasons i do not understand there is very little interest in knives among Canadians.
Every year when the new Collabs come out, there are numerous posts here in BF from members who have bought one of these knives and have documented with pictures, 'issues', that should have precluded a knife of this price being sent out.
I do take people at their word and those who post pictures are giving proof. I have never "trashed" this line of knives. Infact in my 5000+ posts you will not find any "trashing". To state that a $300+ knife should have better quality control is not "trashing". It is an opinion, and one that has also been posted by quite a few others here.
Compare this to the China made knives that AGR is selling. I have not read a single post telling of a problem.
I do not know Case's financial situation, but i do suggest, as others have, that unless they improve their quality control, they may well end up out of business in a few years time, as have a number of other USA knife manufacturers.
Bringing to Case's attention, the knives they send out with 'issues', is more helpful to Case than pretending all is well with their knives. It may be what finally saves them.
roland

[Peregrin]

Ok guys, let's chill? I think the Case Collaboration vs others has about run it's course.

[Rick]

I've owned half a dozen Case/Bose collaboration knives, handled around twice that many and closely followed the on-line commentary about them for years. Quality expectations for these knives are (justifiably) unusually high, given their price and pedigree, so even the smallest variation from near-custom perfection is going to generate a lot of noise. Yes, a few bad apples have slipped through Case's QC, and that can taint the whole barrel when you're contemplating shelling out hundreds of dollars, but buying any production knife sight unseen, even a high-end "mid tech" one like a Case/Bose is always going to be a bit of a crap shoot in this day and age. Your chances of getting a 'good one' are very high, and Case has an exemplary customer service track record, should the need arise. Conversely, I'm hesitant to even consider buying a standard Case knife unseen, unless it was made before the '70s, and that's still no guarantee.

I've experienced and read about issues with the AGRs, just like any production knife. Fortunately, AG's customer service is, in my experience, absolutely as good as it gets, so there's no risk in buying from him. I've owned three of the recent Chinese AGRs, and while they're undeniably fine, even exceptional, knives for the money, IMO, the overall designs and attention to detail aren't in the same league as the Case/Bose knives by any stretch of the imagination. The Case/Bose milled liners, precisely thin-ground blades with complex swedging and unusually fine finishes, pinned shields (finished to match the bolsters), nicer scale materials (IMO), three-position-flush backsprings (a major accomplishment for a prodution piece) and Tony's complex, detailed and demanding design work place them at the absolute peak of traditional knife production. Case could outsource the job overseas and sell them at a cheaper price point, but when you factor the above into the fact that they're built domestically and still represent a solid value, I think that makes them very unique, and, as STeven said, "soulful."

Edit: Oops - I was writing the above when Peregrin posted his caveat, so I'll understand if it's deleted, but please don't close the thread on my account.

[Django.cj]

I'm hesitant to even consider buying a standard Case knife unseen, unless it was made before the '70s, and that's still no guarantee.

I'm either very lucky, or blind that I just don't see the rash of poor quality Case knives everyone talks about. I've had no issues with any of the knives I've bought. Granted I'm not measuring gaps with a caliper, but if anything they seem to be better build quality than any of the older ones I inherited from my granddad.

[Kohai999]

Ok guys, let's chill? I think the Case Collaboration vs others has about run it's course.

Really, you think it is done?

The modern classics of the Case / Bose series of today, as well as many customs, have a technical precision about them that while beautiful in style, and perfect in precision, come off as cold and robotic in nature. Sort of CNC cloned and without a personality or life. It is difficult to describe, but very obvious in "feel". I wish I could command my words to better describe this.

I think this horse is still moving, but do know that when it gets too contentious in here, we shut down the threads and pretend nothing happened for the sake of "forumite unity" or some other hogwash.

The OP got a pass, if I had been the OP, there might have been a calling for my head on a pike.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

[knarfeng]

This is a thread that raises passions as it drives to the hearts of our personal opinions and values about cutlery. The passion is good as long as it is not manifested as a negative towards someone else's values.

(In other words, telling another member that they are full of hooey will get you a chicklet. Telling of your own feelings towards the cutlery you collect will get you respect, even if your goals and values may not match those of other members.)

[Kohai999]

This is a thread that raises passions as it drives to the hearts of our personal opinions and values about cutlery. The passion is good as long as it is not manifested as a negative towards someone else's values.

(In other words, telling another member that they are full of hooey will get you a chicklet. Telling of your own feelings towards the cutlery you collect will get you respect, even if your goals and values may not match those of other members.)

That goes without saying Frank, but in the past, even when discussions were civil and feelings were taken into account and respected, there was an overarching need to control the content.

While it is understandable, the feeling that for what one is paying, some of the Chinese knives, specifically those from A.G. Russell, represent good value.....I don't find them in the same league as the C/B collaborations....and have stated my reasons why above.

To to OP, I don't find these knives to be "without personality". The vast majority of the knives including my single Case/Bose Slimline have never failed to put a smile on the face of a fellow slipjoint aficionado at Blade, the AKI or any other show that I have brought them to. Have sat around a table with a group of much older fellows speaking wistfully of elephant toenails and sunfish knives and pulled out my Ken Erickson pearl handled stockman and watched them coo in awe.

I respect everyone's preferences, just prefer mine the most.

[Peregrin]

Really, you think it is done?



I think this horse is still moving, but do know that when it gets too contentious in here, we shut down the threads and pretend nothing happened for the sake of "forumite unity" or some other hogwash.

The OP got a pass, if I had been the OP, there might have been a calling for my head on a pike.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

STeven

Maybe I spoke too soon. I apologize for that.

Let me edit and expand on my statement. If the thread slides into a name calling, abrasive discussion, then it's done. It looked to be heading that way to me. Keep it constructive and civil and there's no problem.

The forum rules are what they are.

There was no pass given to the OP. None was needed. If this discussion remains civil it can continue ad infinitum.

Thanks for understanding.

Oh and by the way .. stainless steel rules.....

[Kohai999]

Really, Gary, no apology necessary. I truly appreciate what you and Frank are doing.

If anyone owes an apology, it is me.....abrasiveness and attenuation of sentences has long been a trademark, one I am attempting to nip.

Thank you, and thanks to Frank.

Glad we can continue in this discussion, some good points have been made thus far, and I hope some quality palaver will continue.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

[rprocter]

I'm pleased to see the that this thread can continue. While no moderation could lead to unpleasantness, 'over-moderation' can inhibit one from posting opinions even if they are respectful.
I want to ask Rick about this "The Case/Bose milled liners". Which ones have milled liners ?
Also in comparing the C/B Knives to the AGR China ones you state "three-position-flush backsprings (a major accomplishment for a prodution piece)" as one reason for the C/B superiority. The AGR ones, like many old time folders, don't have half stops, so it's not a valid comparison. The absence of half stops is not an inferior design, simply it's one of the two ways of tang/spring construction. Many Traditionalists prefer a knife without half stops.
A valid comparison of this part of the knives' contrustruction is how smooth the action, how solid the 'lock-up' and how the amount of force needed to open the blade compares with the amount of force needed to disengage the blade when fully open. Getting the spring geometry and tempering to give an easier 'pull' and stronger disengagement shows absolute tops in both design and execution. The 'big' AGR folders i have (7 different patterns) all show this refinement.
roland

[Peregrin]

I want to ask Rick about this "The Case/Bose milled liners". Which ones have milled liners ?

Roland, I can't speak for all the yearly Case/Bose collabs but I'm looking at the Norfolk, Muskrat, Dogleg Jack and the Lockback Whittler and they all have the milled liners. Maybe Rick or someone else can weigh in on the others.

[rprocter]

My Norfolk, TS & Yukon do not have "milled liners". The liners are polished on their inner aspect (well side). Milled liners usually refers to a serration of the edges, like on some coins. So perhaps what is meant by "milled" is "polished" ?
Words used in describing Traditional folders can have different meanings that tend to vary with geography. I use the definitions as given by BRL in LG4.
roland

[richstag]

Roland, I believe they are referring to the "relieved" liners. Milling away material on the inside of the liner around the pivot area. Keeping the ricaso from being scratched up.

[Peregrin]

Roland, I believe they are referring to the "relieved" liners. Milling away material on the inside of the liner around the pivot area. Keeping the ricaso from being scratched up.

That's what I was referring to, milled relieved. Thanks for the clarification.

[Kohai999]

At what price do we get technical superiority?

I have no doubt at all that the stainless steel is better than the old brass and nickel silver. But how much better do we need?

I need and use the best tools for the job, and find aesthetic and personal satisfaction in that technical superiority. This applies to firearms as well.

In the '90's I carried a handgun as part of my daily kit for the better part of 10 years, and found out first hand what happened to that beautiful S&W 19 carried IWB on a hot summer day and not immediately wiped down, and have never carried a blued handgun since that time.

This summer, I took an intensive handgun use class that lasted 9 hours, all of which was scorching hot....I cleaned the handgun immediately after the class, but some sweat must have built up under the grip safety, doing some dry fire drills the other day, discovered it needed some solvents, thorough disassembly and cleaning in order to reliably function....although it is stainless steel. The surface finish was just fine.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

[rprocter]

"mill relieved". Thank you.
roland

[Kohai999]

Which ones have milled liners ?

Roland, I have always read this feature as "milled liners", the edge working that you are referring to I have only seen as "coin machined" or "coin edged"....there is always some variance in specific linguistics, unfortunately.

Also in comparing the C/B Knives to the AGR China ones you state "three-position-flush backsprings (a major accomplishment for a prodution piece)" as one reason for the C/B superiority. The AGR ones, like many old time folders, don't have half stops, so it's not a valid comparison. The absence of half stops is not an inferior design, simply it's one of the two ways of tang/spring construction. Many Traditionalists prefer a knife without half stops.
A valid comparison of this part of the knives' contrustruction is how smooth the action, how solid the 'lock-up' and how the amount of force needed to open the blade compares with the amount of force needed to disengage the blade when fully open. Getting the spring geometry and tempering to give an easier 'pull' and stronger disengagement shows absolute tops in both design and execution. The 'big' AGR folders i have (7 different patterns) all show this refinement.

The Case/Bose knives as well as many customs were initially referred to by the OP. The Case/Bose knives and many customs share identical qualities.

The GEC knives and the AGR knives from China share SOME qualities but not all. It is precisely the qualities of the C/B knives and the customs that myself and many others find superior to all others, without any ifs, ands or buts.

These have been laid out specifically. The criteria that you have a preference for works for you, and it is valuable to see those criteria, but in this thread you have continually compared the C/B knives to both GEC and AGR knives, and I find the comparison lacking...specifically because you say with the GEC knives that the only quibble is one of the metal, but that is like comparing a Mercedes to a Smart Car....the materials pretty much make the difference......in the case of the C/B knives vs the AGR knives, there are a vast number of differences.

These issues may not matter to you, and you may find the GEC knives and the AGR knives completely satisfactory for your needs, but the only possible area of superiority for me would be one of price, and price is not often an issue for the knives that I purchase.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

[jackknife]

Steve, if you're going to quote me, then use the whole post, don't take one line out of context to make a questionable point.

Carl.