Those that heed my advice get ALL THE BREAKS and it just ISN'T FAIR!
Those that heed my advice get ALL THE BREAKS and it just ISN'T FAIR!
Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Interesting. I thought that illegal Mexicans made up 85% of the prison population. (insert official Blade Forums sarcasm warning here) Of course, as sad as this fact may be, you have to ask the question of how many of these people in prison actually did what they were accused of? There are a lot of people in jail because they could not afford a good enough attorney to get a proper plea bargain, but most of them did, in fact, break the law. Then you must ask who is to blame? WHY are blacks incarcerated at a rate that is 4 times as high as others and at higher rates than say Hispanics, who have experienced discrimination and are also disproportionately poor in many parts of the country? What have other non-blacks allegedly done to cause that? In others words, there is some kind of socio-legal issue here, but precisely what is it and what the the root cause?
You may be misunderstanding me and then again, you may not be. There are some that say that the road to hell truly is paved with good intentions and that perhaps our decade long attempt to wage a "war on poverty" has done damage to the very groups that it was designed to help and I don't just mean blacks. As I said before, if you want to get really depressed, take a trip to parts of Appalachia. Mostly very pasty white folks up there. My concern is that we may not be getting at the root cause of some of these social issues because people may be afraid to ask some of the right questions. You could also possibly argue the issue that perhaps in the higher socio-economic classes, what some have called the "wimpification of America" may have had the arguably desirable side effect of REALLY saying that certain perceived anti-social behaviors are not okay anymore under any circumstances. Serious crime has gone down in the US by a pretty fair margin in the last few decades. Of course, the problem with that may be that those who haven't got that message will still be held to this higher (and in some cases, borderline silly/oppressive) standard of behavior. Just a thought.
Economic hardship breeds crime. Desperation breeds crime. A culture of believing that it can't get any better breeds crime. These things are all very strongly prevalent in many black communities, hence the disproportionate numbers of incarcerated black Americans. Their claim to feeling underappreciated, undervalued, wronged and set against as a group is--by any measure--a completely reasonable one, but letting go of that and deciding to prove the ignorance of the Ignorant through effort and achievement is their best hope.
"That guy hates black people!" ....well then, to hell with him; why are you worried about what an asshole like that thinks anyway? "This woman doesn't think black people are as smart as white people!" ...then show how wrong she is. Have your accomplishments show how idiotic her view is.
My sister and I have had this argument many times over the years. While never making a claim that I finally "won" the argument (you can almost never really totally win one) I did have the satisfaction of pointing something out to her a few years ago which she had one hell of a time forming a comeback to. I had said that no matter how justified a person is in feeling wronged, in being angry, in hating, he or she is really just wasting life until those feelings are abandoned and the future is embraced. As good as it may feel to wallow, that kind of self indulgence is always a barrier to things ever getting better, because it's an excuse. She then argued that it wasn't for me---who hadn't suffered what black Americans had suffered---to make such a determination for them. I then brought up how she had literally said, "They need to just get over it..." when a news story hard recently run about very small but nonetheless lingering militant sentiments within some Irish communities towards the British. How, I asked, was it her place to tell those people how to feel?
The answer, of course, was that it didn't matter whether or not it was her place to say it, she was right. They really DO need to get over it in Ireland, and FINALLY they largely have, and after centuries of grudges, hatred and poverty there is finally starting to be an explosion of personal possibility in Ireland---despite being hurt by Europe's current crop of financial troubles it's still one of the fastest growing economies in the world. As of three years ago (I don't have more current info on this) you couldn't buy a new BMW in Ireland off of a lot as every single dealer there was back-ordered with waits of many months. Higher education is becoming the norm there. Industry is moving in. Do you know how different that is than even one generation ago? It's because they "got over it", and decided that they were tired of being on the dole, tired being almost entirely blue collar, tired of not finishing school, tired of being considered 'quaint' and decided to do better. It's not that there weren't legitimate grievances with how they'd been treated in the past--there absolutely was a lot of bad blood and a lot of innocent people who got hurt by it. The thing is, legitimate misery, legitimate anger, and legitimate bitterness never take you anywhere you want to go. The newer generations there apparently don't want to hear about how awful it was, they want to think about how good it could be.
So, she was right, but she was also safe. It's politically correct to tell a young, angry Irishman that he needs to let go of the past, but you say that to a black American and you're a racist, or at the very least racially insensitive. It comes from the same goddamn place, people. I don't care if the anchor weighing you down is rage, heartbreak, addiction, or anything else; dropping it and resisting the temptation to pick it up again is the most important step you'll ever take. It's hard to do, huh? Well, of course it is---anything worth doing is hard. You ever read an epic tale about somebody accomplishing something easy?
The current President is one of my least favorite in terms of his political convictions and plans for the country, but I'll say "thank God he won" just because it finally put to bed this question of whether or not it was possible to elect a black president. Seeing as how I've served under black generals, can name several black congressmen, black governors, and a couple black secretaries of state (in the prior administration no less) it never occurred to me that we couldn't elect a black president, but I know there are many who didn't think it possible, so now it's been proven. Funnily, to me, those who assumed that no black man or woman would be able to overcome the prejudice are actually racists of a kind---well intentioned, apologetic doubters who felt that this race of people wasn't strong enough to overcome such a challenge, at least not without help. I don't scream at them or waste time hating them for their patronizing stupidity, however. Just like the overt racists, they're steadily dying off and/or becoming obsolete.
That is a whole lot of conjecture there, and yet you received a +1 for it. So when I detailed the statistics I read, and when I try to translate them into a logical thought process it becomes an accusation? How so? It was not in my mind. I didn't call anyone anything, I merely posed the thought that "what is one to assume from the numbers". The numbers are what they are, and you choose to believe that they are reasonable or plausible, or that you can excuse them away in some manner. I chose to accept them for what they are, and wonder if there is a portion of America that is under-served due to their race. You cannot tell me that America has not made stellar leaps and bounds in regards to sexism in the workplace, women in positions of authority or power, black entrepreneurs, etc.Originally Posted by jdm61
So who are we to stop the clock now at this point in time? Cut off any social welfare and just say everyone is equal you are on your own. That is crazy in my opinion.
JDM does raise an interesting question about the Appalachia, and I might be interested to hear about that demographics anchor in life. However I cannot make the parallel between their case and the case of black people in jail. You are asking me to ignore all the known complexities you outlined in your counter point for what read like cause to ignore the statistics of incarcerated black people in the united states as applied to Appalachia.
Appalachia is plagued in many areas by rampant poverty, unemployment, drug addiction, etc. It has never been a very desirable address, but some would argue that it has traded one form of oppression for another. In the past, many who wanted a better life just up and left for work in places like Chicago, Detroit, Cincy, etc. much like their African-American counterparts in the Deep South did after WW1. Today, you are almost better off staying there and living off of government assistance.of some form. Suffice to say that there is a LOT of crime up there, but I suspect that not much of it gets solved because that is a VERY closed community. The question still remains. WHY are there so many more black people in prison? Why have they fallen behind other groups that started off at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder? You can't tell me that true hardcore racists would single out blacks and give Hispanics, Jews, asians, arabs, etc a pass. What is it about those other groups that seems to allow many of them to get things done the way they were in the past? Many groups have come into the US and been at the bottom, yet they found a way to make do. How do we explain away Atlanta? Why does it appear to be so different in many ways even from other cities where the majority of people occupying high positions in the political power structure are African-American, like Washington, Oakland and Detroit to name a few? Yes, I can tell you that there is at least still one major city in the US where racism against blacks has been a problem and that is Miami. With that said, the Cubans who run Miami now have historically tended to act that way towards other groups too, like Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, etc. You say there is a problem. Okay. I am merely asking what that problem is and what do we do about it. What we have done so far has apparently not worked all that well. Assuming that continued institutionalized racism is the problem is almost an easy out. To the vast majority of Americans, even something arguably innocent that sounds racist will raise the ire of the public. As a rule, we will not tolerate it and in many cases, we are hypersensitive to such things. If Most of the American people would NEVER engage in such racist activities, then what is causing the problem? It is almost like we are supposed to believe that so much damage was done in the past, the oppressed people will never be able to fully recover, but that is pretty isolating and arguably racist in its own right.
Last edited by jdm61; 02-24-2012 at 02:06 AM.
It also (IMO) answers jdm61's question about why so many other downtrodden and discriminated against groups have risen even though they got a much later start. They didn't wallow! They, just like all successful people, just got busy and went about the business of living. Instead of sitting around with others who felt the same way bemoaning their lot, they went out and got educations, got jobs and worked for what they wanted.
I've always looked at it as "they decided to just be 'people' instead of making a profession of being 'black people'." I think we will always have a problem as long as there are black leaders willing to preach separtism and victimhood. There are just too many examples of successful black people to allow me to believe any black person can't go as far as their particular talents can take them, especially now that we have had a black president.
Of course, sometimes people can't be convinced. I will never forget a black woman on Oprah talking about racism, discrimination and persecution - she had been turned down for financing on a McDonald's franchise - based on her race according to her. It would have been her sixth McDonalds (she had five already)!
What we have is a wishy washy society, people who look for the easy way instead of the right way, people so intent on looking good instead of being good. This is NOT about race, this is about culture and NO I am not talking about "white, red, black, yellow, brown or tan culture. I am talking about the essence of culture, individuals and their atomic families.
My personal experience in and out of the military has given me insight, from black dudes with grills, tags on the hats, saggy pants that didn't want to lace up their combat boots while in uniform, on duty to scrawny white dudes that don't take baths but once a week and wear wife beaters and old ripped up sneakers.... you know what these dudes had in common?
Blame is what they had in common, they took no responsibility for their actions, they didn't want to work and as a result, I had to council them about how their actions were going to adversely affect them, even then I was the bad guy. They also hated authority, which made me the bad guy.
So you tell me what the difference is between the two, I think I know, I think the only difference is their clothing, hygiene and what brand of tobacco to smoke. Those are only superficial, the difference between them and me was my work ethic, moral compass and personal responsibility. Outside of the military though, I see it far more than I did when I was in, mostly because in the military there are very real punishments for doing the wrong thing, while in the civilian world the worst thing that could happen is you get fired.
Maybe me being a part of the 1% is what's blinding me to the issue of racism, race has no bearing on how a man acts, that's down to his morals.
My time in the military brought me to many of the same conclusions, and I do miss it often--money aside.
As to poverty and desperation, I wasn't calling them justifications, just circumstances which are often thought of as sufficient reasons by those who give in to the temptation of victimhood. I may have a reason for setting a kangaroo on fire, that doesn't make it right.
MVF, the "patronage" system in Eastern Kentucky is SO corrupt and has been for so long, it has gotten to the point where you LOSE money by moving to a nicer area of the state and staying on welfare. Things like AFDC, SSI, etc. are very profitable "lines of work" in Hazard and Jackson, Ky for all parties involved. Instead of buying your vote with a $5 or $10 bill and a half pint of cheap bourbon like they did in the old days (albeit not as long ago as you might think), the politicians can now do it with public money.
Why do you think crime is DOWN during The Great Recession?
If such crime is a rational act, one might expect it to increase as residents get poorer and more desperate for cash. But the recession also hit the incomes of the victims of crime, perhaps reducing the opportunities for criminals to steal from them.
US crime rate is down: six key reasons
For that Al Blumstein, a criminologist who heads the National Consortium on Violence Research, posits an “Obama effect”, in which the election of America’s first black president inspires a significant number of young black men away from violence. And indeed between 2008 and 2009, the numbers of blacks arrested for murder and robbery each declined by over 2%, though this theory has more narrative than evidentiary appeal.
RE: The OP=====>
The President is a product
Obama is just target marketing a demographic that is important to him
I wonder if the Repubs will counter?
They could have a page about all the African-American success stories from Repub policies/programs
From what I have seen and read
The Evangelical Christians are the ones he should be target marketing.....imho
America's Evangelicals | The Jesus Factor | FRONTLINE | PBS
Trent watches PBS
Haven't donated yet
They get me feeling all guilty with their "members like you" phrase....
Last edited by Trent Rock; 02-27-2012 at 01:07 AM.
Maybe a reduction of unwanted children? When abortion was legalized it matched with a reduction in crime about 13 years later and on. The were fewer unwanted childrean to be raising themselves on the street. I don't know if this is relevant or not because I don't know the birth and abortion rates during times of economic depression.
The obama theory is interesting and I could believe that it has a measurable impact though I would not tout it as some main factor.
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