charles ibbotson slash clip bowie sheffield identification and questions. newbie

[gbuskirk]

Photobucket pictures work as well here as they do on Britishblades




BRL's answer above means far more than anything most of us could say. He offers a professional valuation service at a fair price, but gave you a hint - pro bono. No one here has deprecated the knife as a "doorstop" but you; it certainly has some value, but I wouldn't even venture the number of digits in it.

[DJD]

It's been refinished--apparently with emory paper--you can see the scratches. That's also why the grind lines are all rounded over.

DD

[bernard_levine]

1960 Cadillac Station Wagon.

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The difference being that the car is a one of a kind monstrosity, while the knife is a manufactured monstrosity. And the knife is newer than the car.

BRL...

I was wrong. See below...

BRL...

[gbuskirk]

hi it looks to be solis (sic)

There's a pinned topic at the top of BRL's forum about recognizing fakes.
Immunize yourself against fakes

From that topic (post #18), I quote BRL:

Original fancy bowie fittings were not cast. They were thin sheet metal pressed (by hand) into molds, then filled either with lead or with 'rozil' = cutler's cement, made from rosin, beeswax, and brick dust.

[toddsear]

yes i had a very hard time loading the pics. i think it was me as a user. but thank you.. i think its a nice knife. i read somewhere that a possible fake could be only worth its weight in metal as a door stop. lol. i had to change my pics toi a different upload site as it was easier to make an album. when i read about a charles ibbotson i sort of associated him with a smaller pocket knife that was marked slash. not something this size. my intentions were to sell it on ebay. but i knew nothing, of the maker and did not want to mislead anyone. as with many collectors. its easy to be mislead or get excited about something you want and reaL WANT TO BELIEVE ITS AUTENTIC. SO I JOINED A FEW FORUMS TO GET OPINIONS, FROM KNIFE LOVERS IN THE COLLECTING COMMUNITY. AND WHERE I AM A PICKER WELL MY TRUE LOVE IS COINS, . opps caps sorry. so i guess ill list it for what ever it is. i dont know a value, as many dont know either. so for a buyer who likes a solid made knife with nice markings well. i guess its for them to decide the value. my next project is to hopefully buy a llarge bowie blade, and steam with no handle left. it was dug up under an old house that was there for some 100 round about years. maybe its a true treasure, or have marks. i would like to thank everyone who assisted in helping me identify this maker. when in doubt bail out i guess. and thanks again

[toddsear]

when you ment a solid piece i guess i misunderstood yes its a solid item. there seems to be a seem down through the metal on the handle. i just took some more pics in natural day light maybe you will be able to see it better.dont know if listing one pic will link you to my photo album on the pic download site or not.when you look at the new pics, youll see a seem all around most of it. sorry thought i was finished with the post when i misundersatood the question asked earlier i had to take more pics in natural sunlight to see it all.
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[gbuskirk]

Just for study, here's a side-by-side between this bowie and another one similarly marked on Britishblades. You could make a "spot the differences" puzzle and never even look at the handles.
bowies.jpg

[toddsear]

i believe theres something more solid encased with this silver type material

[toddsear]

i know one thing this is a great learning experience for sure. excellent responses. i totally respect all the answers and opinions of the member on here. great stuff

[toddsear]

i know one thing this is a great learning experience for sure. excellent responses. i totally respect all the answers and opinions of the member on here. great stuff

[PeterPHWS]

If you want some information on Charles Ibbotson & Co, Sheffield I can confirm that there was such a company based at the Melbourne Works in Sheffield and they did have registered as a mark "SLASH" in capitals along with an earlier mark of a bird with the words "EARLY and BIRD" shown before and after a sketch of a bird with a worm in it's beak. Later they also brought out a mark of a sketch of a spoon with the word "CHARLO" beneath it. These marks were registered from 1892 and the company was sold to Harrison Bros & Howson in 1902. They were a Cutlery company making cutlery of all kinds including pocket knives and fixed blades as well as tableware.

As to the authenticity of the blade coming from this company I am no expert and note Mr Levine's comments, but note he fails to say why he believe's the knife to be a fake. If he would give something of a more detailed response I would be interested to learn more. I live just outside of Sheffield in the Peak District and indeed have worked with the ancestor of Charles Ibbotson the cutler who shares the same name but works in Sheffield as a Solicitor ( a lawyer in the USA ) .

Ibbotson is a popular name in Sheffield "cutlery" with Thomas Ibbotson and later George Ibbotson both having seperate cutlery businesses. There are many of the ancestors of these luminary names in cutlery history still in the Sheffield area. The Wostenholm family are still here and many of these businesses had trading links with the USA.

Normally I hardly ever come to this part of the site ... but happened to see your post as one of those flagged as recent posts when I logged in. They say it is a small world ... and it is

[toddsear]

thank you so much for your response and information.seems that the handle is a silvery metal material, maybe silver over some other dark metal. as you can see the bottom on the knife handle small circle like a lead nail shape. it wasnt till today that i took a few pics close up under natural light that i noticed that seems of the metal wrap. i just assumed it was all one piece but i guess i was wrong, till i really looked close up. and the camera phone doesnt really take good close up pics. i assume that the pics i took today would p[ossible let people view all the pics in my album online. im trying to find some older pocket knives i had found while doing a few picks over the yrs. i ussually buy something that catches my eye. and where im in newfoundland canada. there was great ties to britian. where we were part of britian till we joined canada in confederation in 1949

[toddsear]

i ment to asked what did you mean by you saw the post flagged? what does that mean. hope its nothing bad and that i did something wrong. as im totally new to knives. i have a few good leads to older swords. ill have to take some pics some day and post them on here to get some info on them. thanks again for all you guys patience.. very informative.

[DJD]

I am no expert and note Mr Levine's comments, but note he fails to say why he believe's the knife to be a fake. If he would give something of a more detailed response I would be interested to learn more.

Actually, he did say why--in post #11:

"It does not resemble any antique knife. "

I know that's a pretty terse answer, but it would take a rather lengthy discussion to describe to the original poster all of the reasons why his knife doesn't fit the profile of an authentic bowie. Just as if you had to explain how you knew that the Cadillac station wagon was not a model A Ford. The short and accurate answer is that it looks nothing like the Ford. And even if you did explain down to the last detail, it wouldn't help to distinguish the Ford from a Packard, or an MG. You just have to see a lot of cars to know one from the next. Same with bowie knives. They were made in a huge variety of shapes and sizes, and it takes years of study to recognize the differences between the copies and the fakes. Bernard continually points us to the main clues (the materials and construction, the design, the way the knife is marked, the style of the type face, etc) The question has been addressed hundreds of times on this forum, and the answers are all still there in the archives if anyone wants to invest the time to look it up. But there's no easy way for the moderator to pass on years of study in a quick post. If you want to know knives, you have to pay a lot of dues in the form of looking and learning. I've been learning on this forum for several years now, and I'm still wrong at least half of the time. But making mistakes is part of the learning process too. And for me, part of the fun. And I used to be wrong most of the time, so I feel I'm making progress. I do know that I would not have bought the knife in question. And I'll bet the original poster won't buy another one.

DD

[toddsear]

i wont buy that particular knife but for what the amount was that i paid it wouldnt be a thing i wouldnt do again. i didnt lose my shirt in the purchase. if i like something or think something may have value . where im a picker sometimes you just have to take a chance. the person who i bought it off of knew nothing about it as well as the family member who had it. passed away years ago, and to them is just another item that was passed down. in a box with 5 nice pocket watch 2 of which when i searched the serial numbers sold on ebay for nearly 2000.00 so i thought this may have had value. i did my best to research it. so that if i were to sell it .i would not misrepresent it to someone. thanks to all the knowledgeable people on here and replys i have enjoyed learning . bernard was a great help. and being a newbie if you have to take a chance some times on buying something that looks nice and if you lose a few dollars in the process. no biggy. i have bought items that people before told me wernt worth much. and i have sold them for 40 times the value told to me. not the case here lol. you win some you lose some. thats what life is about. but to buy a knife again that i may think has value sure y not.. now that i know the way to get help identifing them.. i know one thing i need a new keyboard. as these sticky keys suck. maybe ill find a good microsoft or logitech. at a pick for 5.00 but i should plug it in first lol... thanks

[N. Brian Huegel]

313,499 3/10/1885 Ibbotson, Charles of Sheffield, England - Knife Handle Construction (Pre-Formed, Cast Metal Wrapped Around Central Inlay Over a Flat Tang) http://www.google.com/patents?id=29t...%2C499&f=false

317,539 5/12/1885 Ibbotson, Charles of Sheffield, England - Knife Handle Construction (Pre-Formed, Cast Metal Wrapped Around Central Inlay Over a Rat-Tail Tang) http://www.google.com/patents?id=XU5...%2C539&f=false

[bernard_levine]

I was probably wrong here.

I have seen this 1885 Ibbotson handle construction only once before (derived from the Goodell handle patent of 1867).

I was responding to the blade shape, and the style of marking.

Neither is possible on a bowie era knife, pre-1872

But on a post-1885 knife, both are possible.

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I would like to see two good large pictures IN FOCUS.

• 1. The whole knife, taken straight on
• 2. The marking, taken straight on, in sharp focus.
  

Post them, and email me the links.

BRL...

[toddsear]

hi i dont know how these pics came out as i only have a camera on my phone. my regular camera is broke. if need be i can get aloan of a good camera or bring the knife where detailed pics can be taken. these maybe what you need ill try to send a link to the imageshack photo album i have there. and you can enlarge the pics to see them better. let me know if it will let you access the 54 photos i have there. as its really hard to take the pics under proper light conditions.im hopeing this knife is of the time period spoke of in your post.i hope these are the right pics requested. or let me know how to send a direct link as you can pick the best pics out of the albums. god this lay out is so confusing to me. thanks for your patience. thanks tod

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[bernard_levine]

Here is the article I wrote about this type of knife back in November 2009 (and promptly forgot).

http://svalbardrepublic.org/z-wi-wor...-383-proof.pdf

Note that both the blade profile and the mark style of the subject knife are appropriate to the late 19th century.

And that it was (correctly) presented as a "HUNTING KNIFE."









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The OP knife is much later in blade profile and mark style.







It seems not to have PAT ENT markings (or does it?), suggesting that it was made after 1902, after the patents expired.

It might have been made a lot later. Charles Ibbotson retired in 1902, and sold his name, brands, and other intellectual property to Harrison Bros & Howson.

BRL...

[toddsear]

no i just looked close up. with a magnafing glass . its pretty smoth it that area but on one side there a series of small line scrathes. maybe just weat marks as there there not even or near the same size. .i took these lics with a smasung galaxy new phone. but if need be i can go to the photo shop the week and get some real good close up ones. this knife was a mystery to me and at one point i asked a local guy about it. who supposed to know about collecting. and basically told me it was only about 20.00 thats what he would pay me for it. but from the feel and balance and how solid it was . i sort of thought different, thats why i turned to you and some other guys who know, and love and have a passion for knives. being a picker i bought it because i thought it looked kool. to sell again. because i only kept older pocket knives that were small. gee if the knife could only talk. so now i need to see when about it was made. is it a legit knife. from your opinion. thank you so much . is it worth getting appraised as i dont mind paying if its worth the a value ? being in newfoundland the oldest place in north america. i come across lots of old knives, some swords, and other items. being a picker sometimes with out the proper info i dont know if i should buy some things at times....ok i can go on and on. lol. question again is it real from charles ibbotson. or a fake . the rest is history. thanks mr levine