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Thread: Is Busse the new Randall?

  1. #181
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    Jim, please note that some of the most highly regarded kitchen knives (for starters) are made from these primitive low alloy steels like O1 and 52100 and crusty old simple stainless like AEB-L. Likewise, i have seen a couple of instances where PROPERLY heat treated low alloy steel like O1 was able to compete head to head with CPM M4 in the Blade Sports cutting championship. The issue with Randall is how they treat their O1.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankerson View Post
    I don't believe Samael was boasting about performance, I don't remember ever reading a post ever that he was.
    Absolutely correct.

    And stop calling it 440A. It's forged, high-carbon 440B.

  3. #183
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    So it is. You are correct sir. But there is another issue with Randall. They chose to forge their stainless knives too. LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by Samael View Post
    Absolutely correct.

    And stop calling it 440A. It's forged, high-carbon 440B.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdm61 View Post
    Jim, please note that some of the most highly regarded kitchen knives (for starters) are made from these primitive low alloy steels like O1 and 52100 and crusty old simple stainless like AEB-L. Likewise, i have seen a couple of instances where PROPERLY heat treated low alloy steel like O1 was able to compete head to head with CPM M4 in the Blade Sports cutting championship. The issue with Randall is how they treat their O1.

    Blade Sports in no way goes to normal use of any knife or steel, the runs are VERY short so just about any properly HTed steel that's worth making a knife out of will perform.

    It's more about the Cutters (Pure Talent) and those specially designed knives than it is the steel they are made out of.

  5. #185
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    I have had no issues with using my Randall's. There is nothing wrong with their heat treat either, I don't see you stating anything more than your opinion in that regard Joe.
    "It is easy to agree that the making of cutlery is an art of the first necessity, since all states, all professions, and all other arts, without a single exception, have an indespensable need for some of its products." Jean-Jacques Perret

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankerson View Post
    I don't believe Samael was boasting about performance, I don't remember ever reading a post ever that he was.
    He wasn't, others were in this thread. I tried to explain what I was objecting to(again), I have no issues with Randal being perfect choice for many people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ankerson View Post
    ...taking into count most people don't know how to sharpen a knife or just plain don't sharpen their kitchen knives.
    but they last forever! And don't need sharpening...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ankerson View Post
    Also some extremely well known Custom knife makers have been and still are using some pretty low alloy steels in their knives and demand some VERY high prices for those said knives and boasts of high performance also.
    If(or when) kitchen knife is properly used, well made and HTed low alloys work very well. Normally, there isn't much abrasive stuff in the food.. Can't comment on 10xx series, never had them in kitchen knives, but AEB-L, Shirogami 1/2, 52100 do perform at very high levels with thin, polished edges. Although, not when at 56-59HRC... Well, the price alone doesn't determine much and I've seen the same alloy perform differently in two kitchen knives from different makers.

  7. #187
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    Shakes head.


    Why does all this steel talk keep going, and going, and going. "Is Busse the new Randall" has nothing to do with steel, but more with history.

  8. #188
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    It's Spring, Ken.

    The Energizer Bunny has emerged from his hole and is bouncing merrilly around the landscape.

    Excess energy, I guess.

  9. #189
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    No, they are not.
    I know nuh-thing.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankerson View Post
    I don't believe Samael was boasting about performance, I don't remember ever reading a post ever that he was.
    He wasn't, others were in this thread. I tried to explain what I was objecting to(again), I have no issues with Randal being perfect choice for many people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ankerson View Post
    ...taking into count most people don't know how to sharpen a knife or just plain don't sharpen their kitchen knives.
    but they last forever! And don't need sharpening...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ankerson View Post
    Also some extremely well known Custom knife makers have been and still are using some pretty low alloy steels in their knives and demand some VERY high prices for those said knives and boasts of high performance also.
    If(or when) kitchen knife is properly used, well made and HTed low alloys work very well. Normally, there isn't much abrasive stuff in the food.. Can't comment on 10xx series, never had them in kitchen knives, but AEB-L, Shirogami 1/2, 52100 do perform at very high levels with thin, polished edges. Although, not when at 56-58HRC... Well, the price alone doesn't determine much and I've seen the same alloy perform differently in two kitchen knives from different makers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Samael View Post
    Absolutely correct.
    And stop calling it 440A. It's forged, high-carbon 440B.
    I didn't mean you said it, it was what I was objecting to in this thread, not the fact that lots of people are happy with Randalls.
    High carbon or not, 440B is still 440B, not a performance benchmark, compared to newer alloys. If you go by specs, 440A is also, "high-carbon stainless" steel 440B has a bit more Carbon in it and that's all. In theory, two alloys with identical composition could be 440A and 440B, with exactly 0.75%C.
    I'm not quite sure I understand what your argument is. Nobody is questioning neither Randalls popularity, nor the fact that lots of people are happy with them. Neither of those facts(unfortunately) can be used as an argument to prove their knives are using high performance steels.

  11. #191
    The choice of steel is also not an argument against them being high performance knives. Unless Swamp Rat in 52100 and Scrapyard in S-7 get dinged with having the same lousy wear resistance that no undisclosed mystical heat treat will ever change. INFI also does nothing wonderful as far as wear resistance goes. If not degraded for such, then these knives are high performance in metrics other than how much cardboard can be cut for absolutely no reason without a couple swipes on a sharpening rod. A quite literal estimation of 99% of the world's population does not need vanadium in their knife steels, and never even handle any such steels.

  12. #192
    Yeah, well, mines BIGGER than yours! Mines HARDER than yours! And mine PENETRATES better than yours!


    We're still talking about knives, right?


  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardheart View Post
    The choice of steel is also not an argument against them being high performance knives.
    I guess it all depends what do you consider high performance? I doubt any HT will make 440B perform on par with 154Cm, let alone M390, ZDP-189, etc. If my benchmark for cutting performance is let's say CPM154, then 440B would rate low, ZDP-189 higher and so on.
    If one benchmarks from AISI 420 point, sure 440B will be a good performer.

    Quote Originally Posted by hardheart View Post
    A quite literal estimation of 99% of the world's population does not need vanadium in their knife steels, and never even handle any such steels.
    Also depends how do you define "needs". In other words, whoever uses a knife, can definitely appreciate/utilize better cutting knives, which last longer. I've sharpened various knives for perhaps over 100 different people, and none of them were unhappy about having sharper knives, and based on their feedback, they wouldn't mind having increased cutting performance at all, especially if I maintained their knives sharp True, they have no idea what's in the steel most of the time, nor do they care, however physically, it is very different cutting with a dull knife and a sharp knife. So, I could argue that 99% of the world population(capable and willing to use a knife for cutting purposes) does need/want/can appreciate better cutting performance and longer lasting edges. How important that is to those folks I dunno...

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by killgar View Post
    Yeah, well, mines BIGGER than yours! Mines HARDER than yours! And mine PENETRATES better than yours!


    We're still talking about knives, right?

    Sure are.........

    Busse

    Randall is for old people and guys who wear cardigans with leather patches on the sleeves

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken44 View Post
    Shakes head.


    Why does all this steel talk keep going, and going, and going. "Is Busse the new Randall" has nothing to do with steel, but more with history.
    Well of course it has everything to do with steel (for those fanboys whose side it would bolster). Of course History Doesn't have anything thing to do with it (again for those fanboys whose side that argument would denigrate).

    This whole thread is like arguing whether or not Moses was the new Noah or is Mohamed the next Christ or is Kora the next Ang (now there is a obscure reference for you). In the Original Post the question was never about design, steel, performance or even quality. The Question was will the price of Busse's knives take off in a manner similar to Randell knives. The answer to this is not as easy as predicting what the Composite New York Stock Exchange will be trading at next week, next year or in a decade (Busse, Randell and the NYSX will all likely but up in a decade). If guessing how a fast or how high a Busse knife will go for could be determined here we could all be rich men on a relatively small investment.

    Quality, Performance, Value may influence a products place in the market and history but they are not a sure indicator of what consumers will decide is the value of a product. It's an old saw but Tulips were never worth what was paid at the top of their market and GM was never as worthless as was paid at the bottom it's market.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankerson View Post
    Then we read fiction about knives in low alloy steels performing feats that just aren't realistic based on the alloy content of those said steels. Not everyone who likes knives are complete idiots who will just believe anything that is said or written because they are smart enough to do their research and learn to get past the hype and BS.

    Making up stories about performance to justify their choice or to sell knives isn't a good thing for the knife industry as a whole because the truth will come out as it always does.

    Well informed people have to ask a few questions before buying into the hype:
    Thank you.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by giant1 View Post
    Randall is for old people and guys who wear cardigans with leather patches on the sleeves
    Why thank you, youngin'! It's about dang time the line in the sand was drawn.

    So there you have it, Randall folks have taste and experience, and BUSSE folks are impressed with the shiny stuff under the hood rather than their driving skills.

    Can we all stop with the silly word games gents, anyone with a notion can come up with relatively pointless posts that add nothing to this thread. This is the wrong venue for amateur night comedy skits at happy hour.
    "It is easy to agree that the making of cutlery is an art of the first necessity, since all states, all professions, and all other arts, without a single exception, have an indespensable need for some of its products." Jean-Jacques Perret

  18. #198
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    OK that's enough. Mr Ankerson, you know its is about the heat treatment. There are elemental properties that matter and you know that, INFI is in this category because they have a unique HT technique.

    Low Alloy steels are not exempt from performance because their elemental statistics are relatively low compared to super steel stats. Bob Cramer can make basic steels perform at very high levels; as did F.J. Richtig who reportedly forged in 1095 (or maybe another carbon steel) and if you do not know what he could do with his knives and in what year (note the available technology), than you should read up on him.

    HT is the key to performance. better steel is the key to achieving higher performance with high HT standards. If you do not optimize both of them, than the discussion is baseless and mis leads the youngin's
    "It is easy to agree that the making of cutlery is an art of the first necessity, since all states, all professions, and all other arts, without a single exception, have an indespensable need for some of its products." Jean-Jacques Perret

  19. #199
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    Gee.

    Between INFI and 01, What got do with stainless steel? I'm expecting very soon to talk about titanium and aluminum alloy too.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freak Show Scott View Post
    This whole thread is like arguing whether or not Moses was the new Noah or is Mohamed the next Christ or is Korra the next Aang Avatar (now there is a obscure reference for you).
    Fixed that for ya.

    And to answer the original question, NO.

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