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Thread: 0560/61 Detent, Lock, Weight...

  1. #1
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    0560/61 Detent, Lock, Weight...


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    Thought I would address the 0560/61’s since they have now hit the streets and are being reviewed.

    First I’d like to say thank you for the support with this project. It has been quite overwhelming from a forum/thread standpoint. Really unlike any single knife I can recall. With all that excitement comes the customer hype that follows, which brings pressure on a product that I’m unsure it can live up to. I will say that I'm giddy to be in that crosshair though.

    We’ve heard back on quite a few initial responses with early reviews on the 0560. I’m happy to see that many of these reviews are coming from members with very low post counts. It seems the 0560 has reached lurkers, and enthusiasts that have gone deep to purchase a ti frame lock flipper for perhaps the first time. We need the input, as it assists in up producing better products.

    I suppose I need to explain the detent portion of the 0560, and our reasoning behind the set up. After some internal conversation yesterday, we feel we’ve brought forth confusion with this knife. By utilizing the studs as the blade stop, we’re enticing folks to use the studs as a way of opening the knife. The set up (heavy detent) can make the studs difficult if not impossible (for some) to deploy the blade. Inexperience hands will additionally perplex the situation. In retrospect, we should have left the studs off, done up an internal stop pin, and made the 0560 a no doubt flipper…our bad on that one. For those of you that can utilize both the flipper and the studs effectively…we’re happy you’ve found that balance. From a production build perspective it is near impossible for us to repeatedly dial in a 0560 that balances a perfect detent set up to accommodate for both flipping and thumb stud deployment.

    We’re definitely siding more on the heavy detent with the 0560, as when paired with KVT, it enables the blade to fly open effortlessly. Additionally without a heavy detent, this knife can open way to easy, and married with KVT…well I think you can see where I’m going there.
    I’ve seen a few 0560’s that have come back from warranty with a detent that they say was too heavy, and the blade impossible to open. Truth is they were set up perfectly. Opened by a multitude of folks internally without effort. These heavy detent flippers are tough as a first flipper. It's kinda like getting a refined manual transmission as your first car experience.
    I remember quite a few years ago with Tim Galyean’s custom flippers…damn I felt like less than a man when trying to deploy them. Tim looked up at me like “really?”. I got my flipping business shored up in short order after that. Recently I received a flipper from RJ. It was a man’s flipper. There were some in the office that strained trying to open it, nothing. No problem for some, impossible for others. Point is, the set up is perfect, absolutely perfect.

    As to the locks being sticky. Well this is a subject that has been covered 1000 times here on the forums. With Ti frame locks, you can have a bit of stickiness. It's inherent (sometimes)...Give it some time prior to tweaking. Don’t saturate with oil!!!! You get oil on the lock face it furthers the stick. Saw a 0560 back yesterday, had more oil on it than a Mickey D’s french fry. The lock was sticky…you don’t say? I understand that some don’t understand, but thought we should address a few “issues” here. Time can assist with stickiness.

    As to cracking open your 0560. I would say that unless you know what you’re doing, and have the proper tools to accomplish the task, did I mention know what you're doing?, don’t do it!!! We see more knives come back from folks that think they know what they’re doing…
    Again, give the piece some time to settle in. If the problem exceeds time, send it in and know you have our apologies, along with our guarantee that we will fix your knife.

    I’ve also heard of those complaining about sharp edges and the piece needs a bit of softening. We’ve heard you and will massage future parts a bit longer so to keep the pain to a minimum. Personally it hasn’t really bothered me, but I can understand the complaint.

    I’ve addressed the comments on the weight and feel earlier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas W View Post
    A bit more perspective on the 0560 and other projects that we have/are producing recently.

    Through our conversations here on BF's , please know that we do take note on the input we receive here. Some needs to be filtered, but we do hear you, and analyze the intel we receive. In many cases we have implemented change to existing items, and have also brought on new features with debuting product.
    We thank you all very much.

    What we've heard with regards to ZT was on size and weight. While many of you like the overbuilt aspect, the 0200's and 0300's were to big, thick and heavy for everyday carry. In evaluating these responses, we came to the conclusion that we would attempt at similar type products but with the intent to sacrifice the thick, and heavy. We felt we could capture full size but make like easier to carry from a weight and girth standpoint.

    The Tilt was really the first full sized knife that we set out to do this to, and feel it turned out fantastic. Like with every design, it's not for everyone, but there is no denying that for it's size, it's a bit of a welterweight with all the top flight materials and technology included. Goal achieved.

    The 0560 is in this genre as well. Compare it to it's cousin the 0550. The 0550 is tough, thick, weighty, and blocky Everything we've all come to expect from a knife in this category. Almost all fit this description. With the 0560 we wanted it to be different from it's relative and competition. We put it on a diet. We removed a lot of Ti with the 3-D machining. Large portions of the liner material disappeared. No beefy backspacer. The result was a knife that brings everything to the table that we're all used to, in a package that is as strong, yet sleeker, faster, and dare I say smarter than the what we've seen in the past. We could have done the same, same, but felt this was the direction based on your call.

    This piece will feel different, and I believe some will not understand it at first. We've all been programmed from the past, and the Tilt, 0560, and upcoming 0777 go against that regular grain. They are different animals, a new breed of which I believe will be the trend going forward.
    For the most part I’m satisfied with your initial reviews , and appreciate the input. We’ll continue to refine the 0560’s to the point where they are dialed in perfectly, but wanted to address some of the threads I’ve been seeing over the last little bit. We do know that not everyone will feel the 0560 is what they were expecting, but are hoping there are realistic expectations as well.

    Oh could someone use one already!!!

    Thanks again for the support and valued input with the ZT line-up.
    Last edited by Thomas W; 03-17-2012 at 01:48 PM.

  2. #2
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    Thanks Thomas, your a true professional..You mentioned the Tilt, just got mine today and its perfect, can't wait for my 0561!

  3. #3
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    I am really glad to know that this is regular production. I hope it sticks around long enough for me to afford one ( a few years at least). It has been super cool to see this one develop and I really can't wait to see what the modding community does with it. on the flipper issue, I like flippers, but when I got to play with a ripple 2 a bit (IKBS) i just could not get the thing to work right. it, literally, is all in the finger.

  4. #4
    I can say without question Tomas that the 0560 is the best knife I have ever purchased. I'm also in that group than just broke the bank for the first time. I did take a file to the edges of the G10 but that's just personal preference on a bit smoother surface.

  5. #5
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    Thank you Thomas for a very informative post and a glimpse of the inner workings of the logic behind the 560/561. Very appreciative of your presence in these forums.

  6. #6
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    Thanks Tom! I myself got mine in today and for the life of me don't feel nor see these " sharp edges" everyone seems to complain about. So far i can say with confidence that this is easily the best full production knife on the market. You guys and the Hinderer crew have struck oil and i say kudos to you. It's my first ZT and im very pleased.
    The textured TI is pretty cool and the lock is smooth...No Sticky issue here ! I've love Kershaw , ZT, and KAI as a whole for a while and have yet to be dissapointed.
    I think the flipper is going to be the bee's knee's in 2012 with the ZT0560/61 leading the forefront. Thanks T.W. and CO.
    Last edited by Acerazor; 03-17-2012 at 06:35 PM.

  7. #7
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    I am really enjoying my 560 - after a couple weeks of flipping I can now take my thumb and swing the blade open using the thumbstud just like I do on my 550 - my only complaint is I dont have enough pockets to carry them all. Three of my friends at the office have now purchased a 560, and it is some what interesting that these are the same people saying they would never pay more than 50 dollars for a knife. I think this is a home run. Congrats on a great release.

  8. #8
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    Thomas,

    I really enjoyed your explanation, and think you and KAI are on the right track. As a relatively recent purchaser of the line, I am impressed with the direction, and the company's ability to "create a buzz" in the knife world with interesting, and innovative products. It would be a good business school case study.
    Last edited by Pilot1; 03-17-2012 at 05:34 PM.

  9. #9
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    me wants one, please...

  10. #10
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    Thanks for the explanation!!
    Mine is perfect, My first flipper and no problem.
    Are the edges a little rough? Yes they are and therefore the knife will remain in my hand and not go flying off to the ground because it's too smooth.
    My lock isn't sticky at all, I guess I got lucky and received a perfect knife. Is it an XM24?, No, If it was it would have cost me several hundred more.
    It is just what I expected and for a reasonable price as well. I say, Well done!!! I have been carrying it since it came and it will get used.

    Lovin it!!!



    P.S. Has anyone ever told you that you look a lot like Robert DeNiro?

  11. #11
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    Thomas, thank you so much for your continued support of your customers and friends here on Blade Forums. Your participation here is very much appreciated, and one of the reasons I have become such a Kershaw/ZT fan.

    I was one of the lucky newcomers to find an online shop with a 560 in stock, and was able to get it just a tad over map. With no tax and zero shipping cost I figure it was right at map. I was extremely lucky.

    Since getting the 560 its been my constant companion. No other knife has ridden in my pocket. I have used it in the kitchen slicing meat and vegetibles. In the garden its sliced rope and bags and some hose pieces. And its opened several feed bags and my mail. While all that may not seem like much, the Elmax and the 560 have become my favorite knife and steel.

    It came hair popping sharp, and continues to be hair popping sharp. While I experienced all of the issues you noted in your post, I learned quickly from our fellow forumites here how to resolve them. The scariest for me was dehorning my 560. I had never done that before. So, I just took it slow and easy. It didnt take much. Just enough to smooth all the sharp edges. I like to think I have fairly tough hands. But, that one improvement alone made the knife so much more comfortable to use.

    The sticky lock is smooth as butter now after just a few days of use. And, with a bit of practice on my technique, I can open her up with thumbstud or flipper equaly fast. I am really enjoying the knife. And when funds and availability permit I will be buying a 561. The 560 is easily the best knife I own.

    Thank you again Thomas. I always look forward to your input here on the forum.

    Family's that hunt together STAY together. Keep a sharp knife handy,
    Marty Ley and FAMILY

  12. #12
    I just wanted to say that the 560 I received is the nicest production knife Ive ever handled, its perfect. I just LOVE the operation. I have never been interested in a model like this because of price / availability but this one really got my attention. I think you have a classic.
    -Bobby

  13. #13
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    people just need to realize its a flipper and stop trying to solely use the thumbstuds, I am glad you did not use a internal stop pin as I prefer the studs being the stop

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwolcott View Post
    people just need to realize its a flipper and stop trying to solely use the thumbstuds, I am glad you did not use a internal stop pin as I prefer the studs being the stop
    exactly its a flipper.I love mine and its strong detent.

  15. #15
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    Good post Thomas, it's too bad it was necessary in a way but it again highlights your dedication to your customers. I don't have a 560 but I do have an RJ Martin and a DDR flipper and the strong detent is what makes the knife. With less of a detent you have to work on technique to get it to fly open. With my q36, my wife grabbed it, and bam, it flew open.
    Strong detent on flippers? I say, bring it on!

  16. #16
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    Thomas thanks for all the info. My 561, was perfect out of the box. I am sure that my 560 will be the same when I get it back from ZT. It seems (from the threads) as though mine was the only one without a heavy detent, and opened TOO easily. But again, I'm sure it will be 100% when I get it back. I am so convinced that these are THE best blades available at this price point, that I will still be getting at least one more when my preorder comes in from another shop, supposedly in June. What's not to love...great steel, great materials, great execution = home run!

    BTW...any talk of a scaled down version, say 3 1/4" blade? I'll take a few of those too!

  17. #17
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    Thanks Thomas for the insight on the design intent. They feel awesome in hand and are excellent slicers. Can't wait to take it camping.

    Oh yeah, a 3" would be killer...

  18. #18
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    Thanks for checking in Thomas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas W View Post
    By utilizing the studs as the blade stop, we’re enticing folks to use the studs as a way of opening the knife. The set up (heavy detent) can make the studs difficult if not impossible (for some) to deploy the blade. Inexperience hands will additionally perplex the situation. In retrospect, we should have left the studs off, done up an internal stop pin, and made the 0560 a no doubt flipper…our bad on that one.
    Maybe it is just me, but please NOOOOOO!
    I'm not sure if the stud/blade stop is stronger than an internal stop-pin, but it sure seems that way. I personally really like the design over a stop pin. Please do not change the design of a good knife to accommodate people that buy a flipper design and then complain about the ease of use of the thumb stud.

    As far as too much blade detent goes, my 0560 apparently does not have that problem. I actually wish it had more. I can hold the knife closed horizontally, blade down, and with a quick downward snap of the wrist, open the knife. That, to me, is too little detent. I should be able to shake that sumb!tch like an angry ferret and not have it pop out. I am waiting on my 0561 to see if it is the same way.

    In either case, it is still one hell of a knife. In my experience; each blade, even two of the same model, have their own personality. Some are smooth as glass, others; not so much. Detents vary, as does blade alignment. It is all something that makes THAT particular blade yours.

  19. #19
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    Awesome post.

    I love flipper designs but I guess people just need time to get used to them. My first real flipper was my Skyline and I never had an issue opening it. It did take me a little while to figure out how to open it with zero wrist action but I have got it down pat now and it takes 3 seconds to explain to someone how to 'preload' your finger before flipping.

    When I got my OD-1 I'll admit that there was consternation initially as to getting the flipper to work. Part of it was my finger riding the frame lock (converting to tip down carry, aka the only way you should carry a flipper IMHO, helped with this greatly), the other part was me needing time to getting used to the different style flipper.

    The flipper on my Buck Vantage just plain sucks. The flipper is too small to get a good grip on and the pivot cannot be let out in the slightest of the blade centering goes way off.

    The flipper on my ZT0200 is excellent but I think the weight of the blade keeps it from flying out without a little wrist action.

    I have a Zing Tanto on the way from Kershawguy and I'm super excited to add another Kershaw flipper to my collection.

    I love Kershaw's unassisted flippers and I will be adding the ZT560 as soon as they are readily available.

  20. #20
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    As far as the 0560 goes, I am very pleased with the way it turned out. The blade is centered and very sharp. The handle is extremely comfortable and feels well balanced. The blade to handle ratio is perfect. I have no problems opening the knife with either the thumb studs or the flipper. I do like the option. There will always be people that complain about anything and everything given the chance. The knife is already dialed in as far as I am concerned.

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