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Thread: File guide issue? updated w/my solution

  1. #21
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    Wow Carl- those are some fancy drawrings!

    Thank you! That's a lot fancier than my pencil sketches

    I already bought materials to make a couple different guides... I think everytime anyone complains about the price Uncle Al charges for his, I'll just post copies of my receipts. This crap is expensive--- dowel pins, drills, reamers, carbide strips... not to mention the time to build the thing. $150 is a deal! Especially if you have to buy a diamond coated wheel for the surface grinder.

    woodworker- I actually made one like you described, but it's hard (with what I made) to get the blade positioned exactly where it needs to be. Some red-neck re-engineering would probably fix that.

    Sam, using one side as the reference might work, but I use the guide for lots of things in the show nowadays, and I'm not sure if it would work for all my tasks that way.

    I'd like to get a better understanding of what James and Rick are saying, because maybe I'm just on a different page.

    My mentality with most things like this, are that I don't mind getting complicated when building the actual guide/jig/fixture.... if it means it will be simple and straightforward once in application.
    -Nick-



    This link will take you to the tag-along thread where I made the damascus camp knife (above) from START to FINISH...


    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/808140-Wheeler-s-Steel-*-Stuck-in-the-metal-with-you

  2. #22
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    My first thought was right on the line of Carl's...he just put my thoughts into pictures much better than I'd have been able to describe it. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. You always build such nice fixtures.

    BTW, off topic a bit, but you wouldn't happen to still have a good square chunk of tool steel laying around welded to a stem designed to fit in a hardie hole of an anvil owned by a certain acquaintance, would you? If you did happen to have it still laying around, I'd be very very interested in compensating you for your time and materials for the possibility of seeing said hardie block. And if that material has been sourced for other projects, absolutely no problem. Shoot me an email sometime (I think my PM box is full).

    --nathan

  3. #23
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    Hi Nick,
    Is the taper moving distally on the blade, moving proximally towards the tip of the tang, or a combination?

    I think Carl's take might benefit from some swivel tip screws to actually push on the tang and keep everything centeted, and therefore keep the guide faces perpendicular to the midplane of the blade. Otherwise it could rock or move.

  4. #24
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    Here's what I was trying to describe:



    Square the shoulder faces with a rectangular file, clean up the radius with a round one. (the files have to be the same width, obviously.) Sorry for the de-rail
    Beckerhead # 350

    Member, AKTI and KnifeRights

    THK Ice Bucket Challenge

  5. #25
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    Thanks for the drawing James, I appreciate you following up with that. I guess the bad part here, is that is what I thought you meant. I've actually tried it that way a few times in the past and it didn't work for me.

    I can see where that seems like a simple solution, but in application it is really hard to file perfect shoulders. Any rocking, or just slight movements off of a perfect plane mess up the shoulders.... and for me, that's what the guide is for--- to eliminate those little body quirks or slips that knock a corner off. And like Rick mentioned, my tangs taper down from the guard, usually as much or more than, the blade distally tapers to the tip. So I would still have the taper issue fighting me.

    Please don't get me wrong, I really do appreciate the input from everyone. I hate it when new makers ask for help, get advice from 10 experienced guys, yet then say, "Well, I'm going to do it my way anyway." So please don't think that's what I'm doing here.



    I got a message asking about the materials I alluded to earlier. Here are a few numbers: carbide strips that are 1/8"T x 1/2"W x 3"L are only about $12 each for UNGROUND strips... but unless you have a diamond surface grinding set-up, you want GROUND- and those are about $25 each. Dowel pins are cheap per pin.... but most places sell them in at least 40/package but usually 100/pkg. If you only want 6 or so, you pay a premium for repackaging- like $20. A basic HSS chucking reamer is $7 for a cheap-O import- ~$20 for an American made, plus you gotta have the right size drill. Don't forget shipping.

    Oh, and 'ya kind'a need a mill to square up the stock, drill and ream the holes, and preferably a surface grinder to really true the surfaces once you have the pins and srcrews set.
    -Nick-



    This link will take you to the tag-along thread where I made the damascus camp knife (above) from START to FINISH...


    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/808140-Wheeler-s-Steel-*-Stuck-in-the-metal-with-you

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickWheeler View Post
    Wow Carl- those are some fancy drawrings!
    Solidworks

    What Carl drew is a pretty standard tapered jig setup. I don't see any other way to do it.

    My mentality with most things like this, are that I don't mind getting complicated when building the actual guide/jig/fixture.... if it means it will be simple and straightforward once in application.
    You could always make your ricasso a little longer, like everyone else
    Last edited by lazlo; 04-06-2012 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Typo

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickWheeler View Post
    Wow Carl- those are some fancy drawrings!

    Thank you! That's a lot fancier than my pencil sketches
    If I could pencil sketch faster than CAD I would have.

    BTW I figured it was the least I could do. I made myself a hand sanding jig, and love the darned thing.

    Plus I "borrowed" your Prototype fighter design, so I could attempt one. Been slow going but it is almost finished.
    90% of being smart, is knowing what you're dumb at.

  8. #28
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    I'm a tool whore, so I don't often think this way.

    What if the solution was procedural rather than equipment based ?


    What if you just changed order of operations?

    Set your shoulders before you taper the tang

    Is that possible ?

  9. #29
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    I guess if a guy was really set on doing it the way James' drawing shows, but IMHO that method creates problems much bigger than the small one I'm trying to get past.

    Plus, I'm ultimately talking about a carbide faced guide to go to the 9" disc sander with. That was too many words to fit into the subject line though.
    -Nick-



    This link will take you to the tag-along thread where I made the damascus camp knife (above) from START to FINISH...


    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/808140-Wheeler-s-Steel-*-Stuck-in-the-metal-with-you

  10. #30
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    This is what I use for integrals and hidden tang knives.


  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickWheeler View Post
    Please don't get me wrong, I really do appreciate the input from everyone.
    No offense taken, my friend. Just thinking out loud.
    Beckerhead # 350

    Member, AKTI and KnifeRights

    THK Ice Bucket Challenge

  12. #32
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    Great fixture, Erik!

    --nathan

  13. #33
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    Gotta love leather!!

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTH11 View Post
    Gotta love leather!!
    There are steel plates behind the leather.

  15. #35
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    "I can see where that seems like a simple solution, but in application it is really hard to file perfect shoulders. Any rocking, or just slight movements off of a perfect plane mess up the shoulders.... and for me, that's what the guide is for--- to eliminate those little body quirks or slips that knock a corner off. And like Rick mentioned, my tangs taper down from the guard, usually as much or more than, the blade distally tapers to the tip. So I would still have the taper issue fighting me."
    With all due respect and you certainly have earned respect, this is a problem that exists if you choose to make it so.
    Ultimately this is simply another skill that needs to be learned (filing) and another setting where a jig will keep you from learning that skill.
    When I took my watch & clockmaking course I had to learn to file flat and submit sequentially more complex pieces that included tooling and a small anvil...all made from tool steel and files. It was difficult at first but it is a skill that cannot be forgotten. Similarly, some (in woodworking) depend on jigs for handcutting dovetails when the art of sawing is actually rather simple when practiced.
    No dump on you Nick, I know you are highly skilled and work doesn't scare you. Actually this has been something on my mind - the trend of than they need to be and this was a perfect opportunity to rant since you are ....Nick. and as such I don't think you will mind this note. The eye alone can discern significantly small detail and the hand can be practiced to make things right.
    Last edited by deloid; 04-23-2012 at 12:37 AM.

  16. #36
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    Deloid,
    I agree that utmost skill is the number one priority and it is the final determination in how a project turns out. However, I believe that once that skill is gained - precision, repeatability, and reduced cycle time can still be obtained from fixturing and jigs. If a workpiece must measured, marked for layout, and be held by a clamp or vise, why NOT go one step further?
    Time is money if you are doing anything for a living.

  17. #37
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    Stevomiller,

    I completely agree. I prefer to use my hand hammer for forming the knife shape and the power hammer for drawing out. Now that I have a setback with my right arm I am getting help to make my LG power hammer safer so I can use it for most of the forging work until I heal.
    I'm glad you added that note because I did mean to state that I see no issue with jigs as long as the artist strives to perfect their hand technique to the point they don't need jigs.

  18. #38
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    Thx deloid, it looks like we're in agreement :-)
    As a mfg engineer for start ups and small companies that are looking to take things to production level, I spend a lot of time trying to modify/simplify processes. Much of what I do is fixture design and qualification. However, due to the precision mandated (stents, atherectomy devices, delivery systems, closure devices, embolic protection,etc) very skilled workers are still required. I just make their jobs faster, less strenuous, harder to screw up.

  19. #39
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    Here's what I use. Learned this from Mike Vagnino. Even with short ricasos it keeps very square. If needed slip in some shim stock at front of knife, it's a very quick process.



    Shoulders are done post heat treat on grinder or disk. No more hand filing. Love this thing.

    Eric

  20. #40
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    Erik, that is awesome for integrals!

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