File guide issue? updated w/my solution

[Patrice Lemée]

I make hidden tang knives only and have found this grinding and filing clamp can be used to grind shoulders. The clamp is only 1/2 inch wide, with the hex screw located at the center of the clamp, putting it at 1/4 inch from either side. I grind the tapered tang to its finished dimention except for the area right at the projected shoulder location. I then insert the blade in the clamp and with a new 120 grit belt installed, the shoulders can be ground in less than a minute. They turn out cleaner than the ones I used to do with a file.

After the sides are ground I clamp the blade in a vise leaving the clamp in place and finish the spine and edge sides with a safe bastard file letting the file ride along the clamping arms of the jig.

Fred

I would be happy to take pics of this in action if anyone is interested.

WooHoo Fred, Fred! *Jumping up and down flailing his arms*

[sunshadow]

Thanks guys. Chuck, I remember seeing Steve's guide now that you jump started my memory... that is a great design!

Brian, thank you for the sketch and ideas. I THINK I get what you're thinking of here-- that's a totally different approach that I really want to explore.


As far as the fit and finish thoughts floating through this thread--- I gotta say I'm still pretty baffled by all of it. I mean, many of you guys seem to be very particular about the specifics of heat treating. So how would you take it if you came in here and posted a question about something quite specific like, "what effect will a 15 degree change in temperature of my Park 50 yield?" or "my salt bath seems to be overshooting temp by 10 degrees, how can I dial that back in?"

..........And you got responses like, "My heat treat set up is a propane torch and a bucket of lard. Y'all are overthinking this one. Keep it simple son!!!!" ????????????????????

My file guide actually aligns pretty precisely flat to flat in all seriousness as I am actually guiding on a tight fit of the bolt shoulders then drawing the bolts until I have good contact with the relevant surfaces on the blade, the bolts will sometimes bend in the process a little. I file all four surfaces of the tang as I like to have a small step of the blade cover the joint on my higher end knives. When I get the collet and grinder built I will have a much more precise system, but I am still sourcing the right diamond wheel and figuring out detail like the linear bearing guide/track and how to mount it all for precise indexing on something I can build with my crappy milling machine

-Page

[Rick Marchand]

As far as the fit and finish thoughts floating through this thread--- I gotta say I'm still pretty baffled by all of it. I mean, many of you guys seem to be very particular about the specifics of heat treating. So how would you take it if you came in here and posted a question about something quite specific like, "what effect will a 15 degree change in temperature of my Park 50 yield?" or "my salt bath seems to be overshooting temp by 10 degrees, how can I dial that back in?"

..........And you got responses like, "My heat treat set up is a propane torch and a bucket of lard. Y'all are overthinking this one. Keep it simple son!!!!" ????????????????????

What?... That never happens.... lol

You make a great point, Nick. I consider you to be one of the best examples of someone who takes fit and finish to near perfection, which is why I didn't make much of a statement in my first post, outside of an engineer's opinion of the guide drawings . My caveman approach suits my style well and while my previous profession saw tolerances of +/-.0002" I feel somewhat liberated in keeping my micrometer drawer closed these days. That does not mean I don't see the value in what you do.... you rock, buddy!

I saw Page's comment as gentle ribbing.

[Patrice Lemée]

I saw Page's comment as gentle ribbing.

Knowing Page, Same here.

PS: I mean knowing him on the web but you know what I mean.

[james terrio]

As far as the fit and finish thoughts floating through this thread--- I gotta say I'm still pretty baffled by all of it.

I was only teasing. Sorry buddy

[Phil Dwyer]

Now that you guys are done monkeying around, what do you think about Felloelter's ideas?

[sunshadow]

well thought out

-Page

[silver_pilate]

I like it a lot, Brian! Great idea. I wish I had a mill so I could try putting together something like that. I may just try and southern engineer it using what I have....

--nathan

[JMJones]

As far as the fit and finish thoughts floating through this thread--- I gotta say I'm still pretty baffled by all of it. I mean, many of you guys seem to be very particular about the specifics of heat treating. So how would you take it if you came in here and posted a question about something quite specific like, "what effect will a 15 degree change in temperature of my Park 50 yield?" or "my salt bath seems to be overshooting temp by 10 degrees, how can I dial that back in?"

..........And you got responses like, "My heat treat set up is a propane torch and a bucket of lard. Y'all are overthinking this one. Keep it simple son!!!!" ????????????????????

In my opinion, shimming a steel file guide with post it notes to prevent flex, overshooting hardening temps by ten degrees in a salt pot or changing the temp of a quenchant by 15 degree's are all examples of things that would provide such a slight differance in the final product to be essentially un measurable with the means most of us use or have available, in addition to the issue of relatively small sample size.

Even the Master Smith test does not allow the judges to use measuring equipment or magnifying glasses, ect. My personal belief is that if looks right, works right and feels right, it is right. Any level of fit and finish beyond that is probably going to be a battle of extremely low diminishing returns.

[Bigblue17]

In my opinion, shimming a steel file guide with post it notes to prevent flex, overshooting hardening temps by ten degrees in a salt pot or changing the temp of a quenchant by 15 degree's are all examples of things that would provide such a slight differance in the final product to be essentially un measurable with the means most of us use or have available, in addition to the issue of relatively small sample size.

Even the Master Smith test does not allow the judges to use measuring equipment or magnifying glasses, ect. My personal belief is that if looks right, works right and feels right, it is right. Any level of fit and finish beyond that is probably going to be a battle of extremely low diminishing returns.

Except when it comes to personal satisfaction and pride.

[silver_pilate]

Except when it comes to personal satisfaction and pride.

Bingo. For practical reasons, I follow JM's thought process, but for someone with the skills and desire to push it to the highest levels, it's a matter of personal taste and pride, and the word of mouth of his attention to detail gets around. That's why Nick can ask $1000+ for his blades and still has more potential orders than he could possibly have time to complete vs. me pulling in several hundred per effort.

--nathan

[lazlo]

A different approach than I have seen here is to accept the taper, and build blocks with pivoting nuts.
They will match any taper within reason.
Carbide rounds instead of flats give you a plane.

Harder to make than the one earlier with the set screws though.

I like it -- it's like a pattern-maker's vise, or the swivel head in a shaper vise.

[Fellhoelter]

On retrospect, I don't think my contraption would work well as I envisioned it.

I think you could clamp up with one side higher than the other, and take your plane out of perpendicularity to the blades centerline.

[NickWheeler]

In my opinion, shimming a steel file guide with post it notes to prevent flex, overshooting hardening temps by ten degrees in a salt pot or changing the temp of a quenchant by 15 degree's are all examples of things that would provide such a slight differance in the final product to be essentially un measurable with the means most of us use or have available, in addition to the issue of relatively small sample size.

Even the Master Smith test does not allow the judges to use measuring equipment or magnifying glasses, ect. My personal belief is that if looks right, works right and feels right, it is right. Any level of fit and finish beyond that is probably going to be a battle of extremely low diminishing returns.

You are certainly entitled to feel that way, but I don't agree at all. My reputation is built on caring about those very small details. And I know that they can and do affect the final product.

Bob Moawad is the author of a few books I own, and in one of them- his words sum up my feelings on this VERY WELL.

"The difference between the bottom and the top, between success and failure, between mediocrity and excellence, is often very small. A single insight is sometimes worth a life's experience. The accumulation of a lot of little things isn't little. So breathe in experience. Remain a lifelong learner. Fine-tune your skills and sweat the details. Constantly be on the look-out for the little differences that can make a big difference." ~Bob Moadwad~


I can fit a guard with a very tight and clean fit. But I know there are things I can do to improve the process and maybe even the final outcome--- and I fully intend on working to improve every aspect of my knife making methods... and cutting guard shoulders is just one of those things.

[12345678910]

"The difference between the bottom and the top, between success and failure, between mediocrity and excellence, is often very small. A single insight is sometimes worth a life's experience. The accumulation of a lot of little things isn't little. So breathe in experience. Remain a lifelong learner. Fine-tune your skills and sweat the details. Constantly be on the look-out for the little differences that can make a big difference." ~Bob Moadwad~

Nice quote

Ilike this one too
1. Ira Glass
Nobody tells this to people who are beginners. I wish someone had told me.
All of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But there is this gap.
For the first couple of years you make stuff, it's just not that good. It's trying to be good, it has potential, but it's not. But your taste, the thing that got you into the game is still killer. And your taste is why your work disappoints you.
A lot of people never get past this phase; they quit.
Most people I know who do interesting, creative work went through years of this. We know our work doesn't have this special thing that we want it to have. We all go through this. And if you are just starting out or you are still in this phase, you gotta know that it's normal and the most important thing you can do is DO A LOT OF WORK. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week or month you finish one piece.
It's only by going through a volume of work that you will close that gap, and your work will be as good as your ambitions.
And I took longer to figure out how to do this than ANYONE I'VE EVER MET.
It's gonna take a while. It's NORMAL to take awhile.
You just gotta fight your way through.



I totally understand, but I've got no suggestions - I'm curious to see what you come up with.

No one questions the use of water-jetting a blank for the time savings, greater precision, increased repeatability.
I think that this is similar to that.

[Fred.Rowe]

Weather you are playing to an audience or living alone on an island, if you want to be successful this applies. "The choice is not between success and failure its between choosing risk and striving for greatness or risking nothing and being assured of mediocrity" Keith Ferrazzi.

Posted on the wall behind my workbench.

Fred

[sunshadow]

I actually think that the file guides have several fundamental flaws, alignment with the blade axis, indexing, repeatability, and parallelism are the beginnings of the issues. I am working on a system design that should deliver repeatably dimensioned tang shoulders but due to budget and time issues I am not anywhere near having it finished. File guides are a coarse attempt at a precision fit, they will get you in the ballpark, but the final fitting will still require magnification, focused light and Prussian Blue if you want to get it right, I want to reduce that work to cutting, broaching the guard, and having it fit with a few thousandths clearance right off

-Page

[lazlo]

No one questions the use of water-jetting a blank for the time savings, greater precision, increased repeatability.
I think that this is similar to that.

Hmmm, I think the collectors would be pretty irritated if a John White, J.R. Cook, Jerry Fisk knife was water-jet cut. Jigs and fixtures are great, but you have to decide how much time to spend making the jig versus making knives...

[silver_pilate]

lazlo, making the jigs and building new tools is at least half the fun of being a knife maker!!

--nathan

[james terrio]

Hmmm, I think the collectors would be pretty irritated if a John White, J.R. Cook, Jerry Fisk knife was water-jet cut.

I'm not a collector so I can't really address your point. I will say that you can just about train a monkey to profile a blade or feed bars into a set of dies to be drop-forged (factory-style, not sayin Fisk et al do that); so I have no problem with people using water-jet for their blanks (I've done it myself and will again, I'm sure). I buy my steel precision-ground whenever possible to save time and belts, too. Whether or not that makes me somehow less of a knifemaker is up to the client to decide.

Anyway, my point is that forging and/or grinding bevels is where real skill starts to be a factor.

lazlo, making the jigs and building new tools is at least half the fun of being a knife maker!!

I think I'm in the minority on that, Nathan. I really have very little interest in jig- and tool-making and consider it a rare, but sometimes necessary evil. Sorry for the thread drift again