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Thread: These are not the class warfare droids that you are looking for.

  1. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by OliverH View Post
    Only if you are careful to avoid or ignore the phrase "at least." As in, Mitt Romney's and Barack Obama's effective tax rate should be at least as high as yours. Agreed?
    Nope, rather you should say that my tax rate should be at least as low as theirs. Weird how liberals can't comprehend creating more "fairness" by any method but RAISING taxes.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by OliverH View Post
    The purpose of the Buffett Rule is to establish one rule (even as a rule of thumb), but not the only one, that would be used to distribute the tax burden in a fair and reasonable way.
    "Fair and reasonable" according to whom? We've already amply demonstrated that the so called "rich" are paying taxes in excess of the percentage of the country's income that they make, so it would seem for the "buffet rule" to actually be "fair" that it would in fact be at the very least reducing the tax rates of the wealthy commeasurate with the amount of the country's income that they make. Further, I'm guessing a truly "fair" buffet rule would have to do something about the nearly 50% of the country that is paying no tax whatsoever but benefitting from government services and largesse just the same. Since the so called buffet rule did neither of those things don't we pretty much have to assume that it had nothing to do with fairness after all?

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by OliverH View Post
    As for the vote breakdown, one Democrat voted with the Republicans; one Republican voted with the Democrats. That's two votes away from a pure party line vote, and not what a sensible person would describe as "bipartisan."
    It was significantly more bipartisan then the vote on obamacare.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Triton View Post
    It was significantly more bipartisan then the vote on obamacare.
    Agreed... Bipartisan is bipartisan is bipartisan. That someone doesn't think it's bipartisan "enough" doesn't change the definition. Tough nuggies eh, it was defeated by a bipartisan majority. Period. (Black and white... no gray... sorry 'bout that)
    Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
    Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

  5. #145
    All that aside as has been previously mentioned the "buffet rule" isn't going anywhere. Liberals will have to think of some other way to raise taxes. They knew this of course. The whole purpose of the "buffet rule" has been served, that is it gives the obama something else to run on other than his dismal record. Now he can clamber up on his demogogue soap box and tell the dumb masses (say that fast) that he was trying to get those evil rich people for them but those wascally wepublicans stopped him. The only solution is to give him another 4 years in office...

  6. #146
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    For those who are interested:

    http://laissez-fairerepublic.com/TenPlanks.html

    Although Marx advocated the use of any means, especially including violent revolution, to bring about socialist dictatorship, he suggested ten political goals for developed countries such as the United States. How far has the United States -- traditionally the bastion of freedom, free markets, and private property -- gone down the Marxist road to fulfill these socialist aims? You be the judge. The following are Marx's ten planks from his Communist Manifesto.

    1. Abolition of private property in land and application of all rents of land to public purpose.
    The courts have interpreted the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868) to give the government far more "eminent domain" power than was originally intended, Under the rubric of "eminent domain" and various zoning regulations, land use regulations by the Bureau of Land Managementproperty taxes, and "environmental" excuses, private property rights have become very diluted and private property in landis, vehicles, and other forms are seized almost every day in this country under the "forfeiture" provisions of the RICO statutes and the so-called War on Drugs..




    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    The 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913 (which some scholars maintain was never properly ratified), and various State income taxes, established this major Marxist coup in the United States many decades ago. These taxes continue to drain the lifeblood out of the American economy and greatly reduce the accumulation of desperately needed capital for future growth, business starts, job creation, and salary increases.




    3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
    Another Marxian attack on private property rights is in the form of Federal & State estate taxes and other inheritance taxes, which have abolished or at least greatly diluted the right of private property owners to determine the disposition and distribution of their estates upon their death. Instead, government bureaucrats get their greedy hands involved .




    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    We call it government seizures, tax liens, "forfeiture" Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process.




    5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    The Federal Reserve System, created by the Federal Reserve Act of Congress in 1913, is indeed such a "national bank" and it politically manipulates interest rates and holds a monopoly on legal counterfeiting in the United States. This is exactly what Marx had in mind and completely fulfills this plank, another major socialist objective. Yet, most Americans naively believe the U.S. of A. is far from a Marxist or socialist nation.




    6. Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the state.
    In the U.S., communication and transportation are controlled and regulated by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) established by the Communications Act of 1934 and the Department of Transportation and the Interstate Commerce Commission (established by Congress in 1887), and the Federal Aviation Administration as well as Executive orders 11490, 10999 -- not to mention various state bureaucracies and regulations. There is also the federal postal monopoly, AMTRAK and CONRAIL -- outright socialist (government-owned) enterprises. Instead of free-market private enteprrise in these important industries, these fields in America are semi-cartelized through the government's regulatory-industiral complex.




    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    While the U.S. does not have vast "collective farms" (which failed so miserably in the Soviet Union), we nevertheless do have a significant degree of government involvement in agriculture in the form of price support subsidies and acreage alotments and land-use controls. The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture. As well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Evironmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations.




    8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    We call it the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000. And I almost forgot...The Equal Rights Amendment means that women should do all work that men do including the military and since passage it would make women subject to the draft.




    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.
    We call it the Planning Reorganization Act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136.




    10. Free education for all children in government schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. etc.
    People are being taxed to support what we call 'public' schools, which train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based "Education" .
    malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium

  7. #147
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    Well, it has happened again. The media has taken a term that has traditionally had negative connotations, at least in their mind, and "rehabilitated" it. When I think of a "tax protestor" I envision anything from a typical conservative decrying the current tax system and perhaps promoting the flat tax scheme to the crazy militia types who claim that the government has no authority over them, so they ain't gonna pay no taxes and plan to shoot anyone who tries to collect them. Now, "tax protester" apparently means some rube with a sign standing in front of the some government office building decrying how the rich don't pay enough and how it is not "fair." Funny how language can work, with people adopting the terminology of their "enemies" in some cases. Kind of like the "N" word being a term of jest or even endearment in the African-American community or some Arabs being called anti-Semitic which is REALLY funny because they are, in fact, Semites themselves.
    Joe Mandt
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  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by jdm61 View Post
    Well, it has happened again. The media has taken a term that has traditionally had negative connotations, at least in their mind, and "rehabilitated" it. When I think of a "tax protestor" I envision anything from a typical conservative decrying the current tax system and perhaps promoting the flat tax scheme to the crazy militia types who claim that the government has no authority over them, so they ain't gonna pay no taxes and plan to shoot anyone who tries to collect them. Now, "tax protester" apparently means some rube with a sign standing in front of the some government office building decrying how the rich don't pay enough and how it is not "fair." Funny how language can work, with people adopting the terminology of their "enemies" in some cases. Kind of like the "N" word being a term of jest or even endearment in the African-American community or some Arabs being called anti-Semitic which is REALLY funny because they are, in fact, Semites themselves.
    And then there are the "tax protesters" who take it up to another level entirely; they renounce their US citizenship to go to greener (less tax burdensome) pastures. Last year set a new record... eight times more renounced than the number of citizens who renounced in 2008, and more than the total for 2007, 2008 and 2009 combined.

    There's that "Hope and Change" the Obama has been telling us about.

    Tax time pushes some Americans to take a hike
    Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
    Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

  9. #149
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    I have been reading about that for a number of years with rich people moving to places like Switzerland and Norway. A number of countries in Eruope have either low or no estate taxes and tax your assets with a "wealth tax" at a rate of like 1-1.5% a year. Obviously they tax new income, but in Switzerland, evil rich people used to be able to negotiate their tax rate on investment income from coming from assets they brought into the country. What is different post 2004/2010 law changes is that because the IRS will fine or even arrest you of you don't file EVEN if you owe no taxes, more "99 percenters" who have obtained dual citizenship through marriage or because their parents came from another country are renouncing. I was not aware that the IRS was demanding records on joint assets where the other party is not an American citizen.
    Quote Originally Posted by timcsaw View Post
    And then there are the "tax protesters" who take it up to another level entirely; they renounce their US citizenship to go to greener (less tax burdensome) pastures. Last year set a new record... eight times more renounced than the number of citizens who renounced in 2008, and more than the total for 2007, 2008 and 2009 combined.

    There's that "Hope and Change" the Obama has been telling us about.

    Tax time pushes some Americans to take a hike
    Joe Mandt
    St Petersburg, FL
    ABS Apprentice Smith and Honorary Eurotrash
    www.JMForge.com
    Blade Show Table 21N

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by timcsaw View Post
    And then there are the "tax protesters" who take it up to another level entirely; they renounce their US citizenship to go to greener (less tax burdensome) pastures. Last year set a new record... eight times more renounced than the number of citizens who renounced in 2008, and more than the total for 2007, 2008 and 2009 combined.

    There's that "Hope and Change" the Obama has been telling us about.

    Tax time pushes some Americans to take a hike
    To requote without the drama and partisan inuendo: Only 1800 people renounced their citizenship.

    I personally know of someone who did because he was living overseas and still had to pay US tax

    Or

    Life was becoming unbearable under the obama regime so he escaped the gulags of the USA.

  11. #151
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    Please note that the news service that filed this story was Reuters, not National Socialist Daily. But seriously, many of the folks that the article was talking about are, for the most part, American citizens who have not lived in the US for quite some time. With that said, relinquishing your citizenship is generally seen as a very serious matter over here regardless of where you happen to live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic Viking View Post
    To requote without the drama and partisan inuendo: Only 1800 people renounced their citizenship.

    I personally know of someone who did because he was living overseas and still had to pay US tax

    Or

    Life was becoming unbearable under the obama regime so he escaped the gulags of the USA.
    Joe Mandt
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    ABS Apprentice Smith and Honorary Eurotrash
    www.JMForge.com
    Blade Show Table 21N

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by jdm61 View Post
    Please note that the news service that filed this story was Reuters, not National Socialist Daily. But seriously, many of the folks that the article was talking about are, for the most part, American citizens who have not lived in the US for quite some time. With that said, relinquishing your citizenship is generally seen as a very serious matter over here regardless of where you happen to live.
    To me, it's not so much the total number that's important... it's the rate of increase during the "Obama years". No surprise there with the possibility that he may get four more. Best to "Run away! Run away!" from The Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog.
    Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
    Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by timcsaw View Post
    To me, it's not so much the total number that's important...
    Obviously not, it doesn't seem the jist of the article is important to you either. You have convoluted the words to fit into a partisan Anti-Obama rant. Nothing new.

    To sum up the article:
    IN 2011, about 1600 Americans renounced their citizenship or had given up their green cards because they found filing taxes from abroad (because they lived abroad or were citizens of other countries) too cumbersome. The increase was probably due to new anti-tax evasion laws in 2010, requiring citizens to fill out even more paperwork or face fines.

  14. #154
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    What other kind of "I hate Obama" rant is there? Were you trying to be kind and imply that at least his rant wasn't a RACIST one? LMAO
    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic Viking View Post
    Obviously not, it doesn't seem the jist of the article is important to you either. You have convoluted the words to fit into a partisan Anti-Obama rant. Nothing new.

    To sum up the article:
    IN 2011, about 1600 Americans renounced their citizenship or had given up their green cards because they found filing taxes from abroad (because they lived abroad or were citizens of other countries) too cumbersome. The increase was probably due to new anti-tax evasion laws in 2010, requiring citizens to fill out even more paperwork or face fines.
    Joe Mandt
    St Petersburg, FL
    ABS Apprentice Smith and Honorary Eurotrash
    www.JMForge.com
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  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by jdm61 View Post
    What other kind of "I hate Obama" rant is there? Were you trying to be kind and imply that at least his rant wasn't a RACIST one? LMAO
    I don't hate Obama, I just think he's an empty suit, a terrible President and he only MAY be a racist. One thing I really do like about Obama... he makes Jimmy Carter look GREAT!
    Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
    Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

  16. #156
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    Well, I dislike him and i would still dislike him even if his name was Biff or Billy Bob and he lived in a mansion in Palm Beach or in a singlewide on some strip mined hilltop outside of Hazard, KY. As for the Jimmy Carter thing, I thnk that he may actually be looking to surpass James Buchanan.
    Quote Originally Posted by timcsaw View Post
    I don't hate Obama, I just think he's an empty suit, a terrible President and he only MAY be a racist. One thing I really do like about Obama... he makes Jimmy Carter look GREAT!
    Joe Mandt
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  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdm61 View Post
    What other kind of "I hate Obama" rant is there? Were you trying to be kind and imply that at least his rant wasn't a RACIST one? LMAO
    No, I haven't stopped beating my wife.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by timcsaw View Post
    Agreed... Bipartisan is bipartisan is bipartisan. That someone doesn't think it's bipartisan "enough" doesn't change the definition. Tough nuggies eh, it was defeated by a bipartisan majority. Period. (Black and white... no gray... sorry 'bout that)
    The above just goes to show how thought deteriorates along with language. If somebody wants to characterize a group of 44 Republicans and 1 Democrat as "bipartisan," that's pretty ridiculous, and IMO dishonest. To say that 45 out of 96 voting Senators is a "majority," however, is taking things into Orwellville. But why let such considerations get in the way of a good narrative? Clearly someone has been spending too much time on Fox News.

    Let's note that by the definition you guys favor, I could just as easily have called the group who wanted the Buffett Rule "bipartisan" (since there was one Republican among them), and (unlike yourself) could have accurately said that they constituted a majority. Hence, I could have said--presumably with your heads bobbing enthusiastically in agreement--that "a minority of Senators consisting almost entirely of Republicans thwarted the bipartisan majority from voting on the Buffett Rule." See how that works? Yeah, me too, but I don't expect people to buy it--except maybe those who are a tad over-eager to cram an unruly reality into the nice square box they have prepared for it.

    "Black...white...no gray." Indeed, another example of the dangers of trying to see the world in only two colors.
    Last edited by OliverH; 04-19-2012 at 03:45 AM.
    “Whether the knife falls on the melon or the melon on the knife, the melon suffers.” -- African Proverb

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by timcsaw View Post
    Ditto... If "fair" is defined as "everyone being treated as equals, everyone having the same opportunities without prejudice, etc." it's a nice Utopian fantasy to think it can ever be realized in the human species (as are most Marxist ideals). Good luck with that. I won't accept responsibility for all of the "unfairness" that exists in the world, and further, I won't be "dumbed down" because "you can't fix stupid". "If you say you can't, you won't... not because you couldn't, but because you didn't try hard enough." Many people in this world have gone on to excel who've come from much greater hardships than most of us can ever imagine (see a man from Somalia who came to America and greatly improved his stead).

    It's always interesting to see liberals repeatedly forward the idea that "fairness" can only be achieved by bringing everyone down to the lowest level, instead of providing opportunities for the lowest level to rise to a higher level of independence through their own efforts. Par.
    This is mostly a string of cliches, all of which require exaggerating and distorting other people's views, or simply imputing opinions and motives to them. It makes for uninteresting discussion.
    Last edited by OliverH; 04-19-2012 at 03:46 AM.
    “Whether the knife falls on the melon or the melon on the knife, the melon suffers.” -- African Proverb

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdm61 View Post
    Well, I dislike him and i would still dislike him even if his name was Biff or Billy Bob and he lived in a mansion in Palm Beach or in a singlewide on some strip mined hilltop outside of Hazard, KY.
    That's a peculiar comment. Since you harbor such a fierce and pointless personal dislike of the guy, what is it about him that would still be there to cause you to so foam at the mouth if he were somebody else? If he were those other things you mentioned, he would no longer be the same person. In particular, he probably wouldn't be the same well-educated well-spoken somewhat liberal black guy who speaks in complete and often thoughtful sentences, and thus he would not be by definition so maddeningly "arrogant."

    Public figures, or people like poor George Zimmerman who become public figures involuntarily, tend to stop being seen or effectively understood as real people but instead turn into cartoonish Rorschach tests, especially for those who conceive such strong dislikes for them. As such, those strong passions often say a lot more about those who feel them than about those who are their target.
    Last edited by OliverH; 04-19-2012 at 03:24 AM.
    “Whether the knife falls on the melon or the melon on the knife, the melon suffers.” -- African Proverb

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