Non-LEO Use of OC

[camoninja]

Guys, I've probably sprayed close to a 1,000 individuals in my LE career. (Out of it now). From inmates with the Florida Dept of Corrections to a Sheriffs Dept in TN. It is used as a deterrent. In the LE area, you spray and assist to the floor . For 1-2 seconds the individual sprayed will close his/her eyes and gasp for air. Thats when you assist them to the floor and use your cuffs. The average person on the street will be affected worse most of the time. Now take an aggressor hell bent on hurting you or taking something from you, you can use the whole can on them and they will still attack or take from you. Seen it to many times. I've used every brand made and some suck, others work better, most will give you that 1-2 seconds.

I think every LE officer should have to be sprayed so they know how to re-act. You see people cry, roll on the ground etc. Others get sprayed and it doesn't affect them at all. Spray me with it, I'll laugh. Tasers and stun guns are the same.

If you carry it you should also know what to do if it happens to blow back in your face. Seen that happen before. Be prepared to know what to do if you spray someone and they still keep coming. Meth and crack heads will take the can from you after being sprayed and stick it somewhere.

Personally I wouldn't waste my money on buying it.

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[camoninja]

Sure was. Freeze +P seemed to work the best. Fox sucked. Couple of other brands.

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[KennyB]

I'm interested in pepper spray because I don't like the idea of using my fists as a first response. I don't really think it's that great of an idea because I'm the type of person that has a modicum of boxing training and I'm quite large, so if I go too far and bloody up a guy's face and the police come and it's me saying, "Oh, yeah, this guy attacked me," and I'm 100-200 pounds heavier than they are, that doesn't bode well for me. Not to mention worrying about whether you seriously injure or even kill the other person... I mean, it would be a real freak occurrence kind of thing where maybe you deck someone and they hit their head on the ground hard, but still, why risk that right off?

I would think that pepper spray would be a pretty good deterrent even with the delay I've seen because it pretty much immediately makes the person close their eyes. I mentioned I'm a big guy already, and I like the idea of actually blinding a person temporarily because while normally pretty much any adversary would be able to chase me down, would they be able to do so if they couldn't see me?

So aside from having it as your only option, but about using it as your first response? In my thinking, even if I eventually did have to fist fight a person, wouldn't I rather increase my chances of success in this by limiting their vision and perhaps their breathing? To me I've always considered that it probably doesn't take a person out right off, but doesn't it give a person a leg up?

So anyway, as a tool to prevent or delay having to use more forceful options, what do you guys think?

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[HeavyHanded]

To me I've always considered that it probably doesn't take a person out right off, but doesn't it give a person a leg up?

This is where I come down too. I've seen plenty of people take hard punches to the head and be virtually unfazed or become outright unhinged, but who's willing to say a punch to the head is ineffective?

In any event, spray is intended to give an individual room to scoot, take the wind out of anyone chasing them, or improve the odds of overcoming someone if you do have to fight after they've been dosed. It is not a weapon, is not classified by any US locality as a weapon AFAIK if used lawfully, and shouldn't be confused with a weapon. All well and good to talk about landing elbows, bouncing BGs off the nearest wall etc, but I still am not hearing any good physical force alternatives for smaller individuals, esp if facing multiple bogies, aside from many many hours of quality MA instruction. For a smaller or frail person facing a much heavier and potentially fight-savvy man, stabbing with a pen or striking with any sort of hand weapon and running sounds no more or less likely to produce a positive outcome compared to spray and run. Of the general population, how many people out there are even willing to take SD classes let alone get proficient enough to apply it?

I guess I'm not seeing the controversy here - it has a role, criticizing it for failing to do more than its supposed to doesn't make much sense to me.

[tyr_shadowblade]

Pepperspray is nothing but a chemical b***h slap. Works GREAT for that, especially the foam.

[jackburton9807]

I'm currently laid up after shoulder repair on my dominant arm and have had to rethink my SD options until I'm back together in 6 or so months. I have OC/CS on hand have been following this thread closely. I have loads of experience w/ spray and agree that it's not a fight stopper by any stretch.

What do you lot think about a quick blast followed by instantaneous shots (low line kicks/elbows/whatever) in an attempt to disable/create distance?

Thanks much in advance.

[tyr_shadowblade]

What do you lot think about a quick blast followed by instantaneous shots (low line kicks/elbows/whatever) in an attempt to disable/create distance?

I think you'll probably end up contaminating yourself, especially if it's not a foam or gel. If it is a large 4 oz can you can use it as a yawara to hammer a divot in someone's head if you're grabbed, but the 2 oz can fits in a pocket easier. After you spray them, back up a bit so they can't get their hands on you. That way, if they can still sorta see you and charge you will be away from the gas cloud. There is less of a cloud with a streamer, but it is still there, and that is especially evident if you use it indoors.

[mercop]

Maybe the community will wake up to this bullshit and fairy dust. Call the company's and ask for citizen use stories. They will try to tell you about all the agency's that carry it instead.- George

[HeavyHanded]

I think you'll probably end up contaminating yourself, especially if it's not a foam or gel. If it is a large 4 oz can you can use it as a yawara to hammer a divot in someone's head if you're grabbed, but the 2 oz can fits in a pocket easier. After you spray them, back up a bit so they can't get their hands on you. That way, if they can still sorta see you and charge you will be away from the gas cloud. There is less of a cloud with a streamer, but it is still there, and that is especially evident if you use it indoors.

Gotta agree - you can use the stuff IF you have room to back up and then follow up with some low kicks etc. If you don't have room (or time to move into it) the OC is going to be a liability. Of course if you're older, disabled, recovering from surgery then it might be worth it to gas yourself a bunch if it means blasting the perp. Your other options are...?

[HeavyHanded]

Maybe the community will wake up to this bullshit and fairy dust. Call the company's and ask for citizen use stories. They will try to tell you about all the agency's that carry it instead.- George

For what its worth, here's a bunch of stuff, animal encounters and personal use. I have no idea of the veracity.
http://www.udap.com/testify.htm

I find it interesting that you can't remember responding to a single call where a person had been a victim of a physical crime after dosing an attacker - "I sprayed 'em and they just kept coming like it was air freshener". By your own words you can't recall responding to a single call involving civilian use - isn't that a bit strange in and of itself? How many calls did you respond to where a person had been victimized after attempting to fight back with hands, feet, improvised weapon? It certainly isn't pixie dust, but I still haven't heard any physical force alternatives for elderly or impaired individuals, or something that could allow a get-away without putting your hands on someone first.

I look at it as carry but don't depend on it (in truth I seldom if ever carry it). It might help, probably won't hurt. Its light and involves relatively few legal liability issues (esp if used preemptively).

[djjonny]

Don't know if this counts, but I have been on the receiving end of pepper spray, not from a person but a security system
(Uncles house, never disarmed in time)
Not sure of brand used

I coughed, eyes and nose ran like hell, but wasn't blinded bad (apart from the tears in my eyes) and could still see and find my way around fine.

Unless the handheld cans are more potent I'm not convinced they stop well unless to run away and spray behind.
(I stand corrected if wrong)

[stabman]

Maybe the community will wake up to this bullshit and fairy dust. Call the company's and ask for citizen use stories.

You are forgetting something though. The beauty of something like pepper spray is that a civilian can use it and NOT tell the cops, because no one is dead/bleeding/broken into bits.
Why the hell would someone tell the cops "some guy tried mugging me, so I sprayed him in the face and ran away like Sir Robin the Brave."?

Just like many crimes go unreported, so do many instances of defending oneself. Something to keep in mind.

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[tyr_shadowblade]

fairy dust.

I have seen pink cans of pepperspray many times. I think it is time for someone to mix sparkles and glitter into the carrier agent.

[edmundl]

I went to the UDAP site and counted 4 human vs. human encounters on their "alleged" product testimonial section. In all those encounters the product was effective in neutralizing the attack in each encounter. The bulk of their product testimonials had to do with the bear spray that they sell. In addition to their personal defense sprays. Looking at the personal defense spray (clip on commander). I see that they are using 15% O.C. at 3% total capsaicin and related capsaicinoids. With a 3 million total scoville heat units. I have not seen anything on the market that is hotter than this spray. However, I can not vouch for the effectiveness of this product.

[mercop]

Probably because it is an assault. You don't want to be the guy who sprays someone and then fails to report it. If he goes to the police you are going to be charged with assault, after all if you were defending yourself they why would you not report the use to the police. Everyone things they are the good guy when in fact they are actually pieces of shit. Not too many white hat/black hat fights in the street.- George

[HeavyHanded]

I went to the UDAP site and counted 4 human vs. human encounters on their "alleged" product testimonial section. In all those encounters the product was effective in neutralizing the attack in each encounter. The bulk of their product testimonials had to do with the bear spray that they sell. In addition to their personal defense sprays. Looking at the personal defense spray (clip on commander). I see that they are using 15% O.C. at 3% total capsaicin and related capsaicinoids. With a 3 million total scoville heat units. I have not seen anything on the market that is hotter than this spray. However, I can not vouch for the effectiveness of this product.

I have not used mine in an encounter, but I did some tests. I sprayed the opposite wall of an outdoor loading area from ten feet away. I expected a large visual cloud of orange, or at least some good sized goobers. I heard a quick hiss and thought I saw some miniscule orange specs on the wall. Myself and a coworker waited about a three count and advanced to within four feet or so and it felt like I'd pissed off Darth Vader. My throat immediately began to close up, my coworker backed off and put his hands on his knees sucking wind. My eyes still worked OK, but the tears that started collecting began to sting the edges of my eyes. It didn't get worse than that, but it was about a half second blast and I didn't take a hit.
I tested the can I got my old lady inside the dock area after hours. Set up a sheet of cardboard and again sprayed it from ten feet, This time I could make out the hit area, about 10 inches or so across - very light spatter, very small droplets. I was ready, so didn't take a normal breath and left the dock. Came back ten minutes later and it had gotten worse, Opened up the dock door and let it dissipate. I'm guessing a hit anywhere on the chest or higher would be pretty effective - like Halls Vap o Rub from Hell. Many years ago I deliberately exposed myself to some 1.7% stuff - sprayed it on my hand and rubbed it on my face all across my cheek bone. Stunk my apartment up and felt like a cigar was being ground out on my face. Not that I've ever had a cigar ground on my face, but I have played cigarette chicken before and it felt might similar. In that case I was laughing my head off as I went to flush my face in the bathroom, but I wasn't laughing because the stuff was a joke. I decided I could still function, but not well, and one eye was tearing so bad it was effectively out of action - I could taste the crap when I cleared my throat for many many hours after. Again, I didn't take a direct hit, and I didn't inhale deeply either but it was still pretty miserable.

This is pretty much my opinion forming experience, and from talking to some friends that had been OCd, including one buddy that had been sprayed directly in the face by a long standing personal enemy. The guy then pulled a knife and tried to finish it off, but my buddy backed up onto a random porch and was able to fend off his attacker with a chair and by making a lot of noise. He said if he hadn't been able to restrict the guys approach, he'd be in bad bad shape as he could barely see and was having a tough time breathing.

It might not drop anyone, but its not just a handful of baby powder either.