Custom Tactical Folders?

[eonXboX360]

[cbr900son]

If you want your knife to be a tactical knife...put a synthetic handle material on it.

I understand what you are saying but i disagree. Just because your judging category rules are setup a certain way or things are marketed a certain way doesn't make statements like above true. I think if we let people over classify things they take away from the "spirit" of a knife. You make it sound like the classification is more about the materials then anything. There are bowies made of damascus and still considered a bowie. There was no set of rules telling a maker no you didn't make a bowie you made a damascus knife. I can understand for judging at certain shows if you make certain class rules but it shouldnt be forced on us as pure fact and defining our work and our passion about knives.

[Les Robertson]

CB,

You just aren't getting this are you...stop trying to put the square peg in a round hole:

I think if we let people over classify things they take away from the "spirit" of a knife. You make it sound like the classification is more about the materials then anything.

Spirit of the knife??? WTF is that? Is that like the "spirit of the law"...instead of the actual law itself? Or are you one of those makers who can put a soul or part of a soul into the blade.

Yes, exactly right (here we go again....Tactical is a marketing term....Tactical is a marketing term. ) Yes this Marketing term became part of the custom knife lexicon to describe a knife with a particular look and materials. Again it in no way shape or form has any affect on the knife's ability to do a job or determine what job(s) this type of knife can do. It does not take away or add anything to the knifes ability or "spirit".

Pay attention to this part (as you missed it before). The categories created for tactical folders and fixed blades did not come first....they were created because this particular market sector became popular with collectors. First the knives were made (early on called Gray Turds...not a great name), then the term Tactical was used to describe the knives that several makers were building. Then magazines, books started using the terms to describe the knives in the photos that were featured in the articles. Then the category of "tactical" for judging at knife shows came about.

If you have more questions stop by the Seminar at the Blade Show entitled "What to look for in a Tactical Folder". I will be there. I'll be easy to recognize, I'll be the one in the front of the room conducting the seminar and answering questions.

Now you can create any knife you want...infuse it with whatever spirit you want. But when it doesn't win awards, does not find favor with tactical knife collectors, is not featured in any articles on tactical folders....you will understand that it is not the spirit of the knife that is keeping your name from appearing. It is the fact that you have put wood on a "tactical" folder...thereby making it a presentation folder.

Question for you? Why do you have such a problem with calling a presentation folder....a presentation folder? More shows have art and presentation folder categories than they do tactical folder categories.

[sheathmaker]

Les, I have a question.....Is "tactical" a marketing term?

Just kidding my friend. I'm sure not an expert, nor a judge, but I do agree with you in this thread,.... completely with no reservations.
That makes either three or four times I've agreed with you!

Paul

[Les Robertson]

Hi Paul,

Great, you agree with me. Now I have to re-read this entire thread and find out where I have gone wrong! LOL

Thanks.

[cbr900son]

CB,

You just aren't getting this are you...stop trying to put the square peg in a round hole:



Spirit of the knife??? WTF is that? Is that like the "spirit of the law"...instead of the actual law itself? Or are you one of those makers who can put a soul or part of a soul into the blade.

Yes, exactly right (here we go again....Tactical is a marketing term....Tactical is a marketing term. ) Yes this Marketing term became part of the custom knife lexicon to describe a knife with a particular look and materials. Again it in no way shape or form has any affect on the knife's ability to do a job or determine what job(s) this type of knife can do. It does not take away or add anything to the knifes ability or "spirit".

Pay attention to this part (as you missed it before). The categories created for tactical folders and fixed blades did not come first....they were created because this particular market sector became popular with collectors. First the knives were made (early on called Gray Turds...not a great name), then the term Tactical was used to describe the knives that several makers were building. Then magazines, books started using the terms to describe the knives in the photos that were featured in the articles. Then the category of "tactical" for judging at knife shows came about.

If you have more questions stop by the Seminar at the Blade Show entitled "What to look for in a Tactical Folder". I will be there. I'll be easy to recognize, I'll be the one in the front of the room conducting the seminar and answering questions.

Now you can create any knife you want...infuse it with whatever spirit you want. But when it doesn't win awards, does not find favor with tactical knife collectors, is not featured in any articles on tactical folders....you will understand that it is not the spirit of the knife that is keeping your name from appearing. It is the fact that you have put wood on a "tactical" folder...thereby making it a presentation folder.

Question for you? Why do you have such a problem with calling a presentation folder....a presentation folder? More shows have art and presentation folder categories than they do tactical folder categories.

The problem I have is someone telling people they are wrong and basing it on marketing terms and judging classes at certain knife shows. Then coming across in every post as "I wrote articles" "I'm at the front doing a seminar at this show" and suddenly what they say is law. Are damascus bowies still bowies or are the makers wrong there also? I think you call a knife by what it is and what the maker has made. If i make a huge chopper and choose titanium I don't want someone coming and saying no your wrong because you used titanium or the handle is stabalized wood. I understand your classifications according to judging but your judging rules arn't laws. Give people some play and drop the snob attitude.

In this line you said " It is the fact that you have put wood on a "tactical" folder...thereby making it a presentation folder." No i didn't make a presentation folder you decided to call it that. I might have made a folder meant to be used by a LEO or military or whoever and definetly not a presentation pice because of your judging classifications.

[Lorien]

Gray turds, never heard that before. Wonder why it didn't catch on lol.
Informative as always, Mr. Robertson

[Les Robertson]

cbr

I understand your classifications according to judging but your judging rules arn't laws. Give people some play and drop the snob attitude.

As you write about yourself on your website:

I've been making knives for a few years now and loving it! Its kind of a off beat hobby

By your own admission you are a hobbyist who has only been making knives for a few years. You come across as a maker who enjoys making kitchen cutlery the best. Nothing wrong with any of those things.

Given your experience within the custom knife field, it is presumptive and ill informed of you to a snob. Lets face my experience with not only tactical knives but custom knives in general is vastly superior. Not because I am superior to you...but because 28 years (with the last 17 being a full time professional) has given me experiences within the custom knife field that will take you decades (if ever) to obtain. Again, not being a snob, just stating facts.

Another item you are not grasping is that (man I wish you would read my posts...take your time), is that the judging criteria was created over a decade by a combination of makers, collectors, dealers, magazines and the Internet to create the guidelines for the criteria for the judging. These as you say ("ain't") my laws.

The nice thing about having a hobby is that you can do with it as you wish. Call the knives what you like, force that square peg into the round hole.

[Les Robertson]

Hi Lorien,

Early on after the collapse of the interframe folder (circa 1992) titanium became available and pioneers such as Kit Carson, Pat Crawford, Bob Terzuola, Chris Reeve, Mel Pardue and other were building knives that had a blade, two slabs of titanium with clip that were bead blasted. Hence the gray appearance and the not so glamorous monicker.

Note, the Gray Turds were as responsible for saving the custom knife market as any other knife genre there has been. Had it not been for these knives and these makers custom knives as we know it would not exist as it does today. Not just the custom knife market but the whole cutlery industry.

How many factories now totally rely on the makers of the Gray Turds and those they paved the way for.

[lemmuhj]

I have to admit, I love reading "drama filled" threads...

BUT, I've actually learned a great deal as far as differences between tactical/presentation folders etc

[Les Robertson]

Hi Lem,

No drama here. Im glad you have learned something. That is the object of the exercise with my posts on this thread.

I didn't coin the term, I didn't make up the rules....just passing along the information.

[harkamus]

Note, the Gray Turds were as responsible for saving the custom knife market as any other knife genre there has been.

Without even having read any of your posts prior to this, I have come to same conclusion of what *my* ideal tactical folder would be. Coincidentally, it follows those rules, and has already been commissioned from a maker over a year ago. The slabs will be bead blasted titanium and the blade will be stonewashed m390. I wanted a working man's knife without any of decorative things or embellishments. The bead blasted and stone washed finishes will help in hiding the wear. I would have opted for a stone washed finish on the titanium slabs as well, but they are 3d machined and wouldn't take too well to being stone washed.

Grey turd for me it is.

[1SHOT1KILL]

Neil Blackwood made this one for me. I gave him a photoshopped pic of one of his knives, and he made it come to life. One hell of a maker!

That is a seriously nice piece of cutlery there...

[misterjuiceman]

That is a seriously nice piece of cutlery there...

Thanks chief! Neil does some amazing work.

[Lorien]

Hi Lorien,

Early on after the collapse of the interframe folder (circa 1992) titanium became available and pioneers such as Kit Carson, Pat Crawford, Bob Terzuola, Chris Reeve, Mel Pardue and other were building knives that had a blade, two slabs of titanium with clip that were bead blasted. Hence the gray appearance and the not so glamorous monicker.

Note, the Gray Turds were as responsible for saving the custom knife market as any other knife genre there has been. Had it not been for these knives and these makers custom knives as we know it would not exist as it does today. Not just the custom knife market but the whole cutlery industry.

How many factories now totally rely on the makers of the Gray Turds and those they paved the way for.

A similar thing occurred in the mountain bike industry after NORBA fell apart and cross country racing lost the mass appeal brought on by the exposure. In the late nineties, a renaissance happened on the North Shore of Vancouver- happened elsewhere too but because the North Shore was a social epicenter Shore Trails were created all over the world. Shore Riding as a descriptor has been replaced with Freeride. Big, heavy, reliable bikes- part offroad motorcycle- reminds me a lot of what I figure a tac folder to be and it's prominence in the market resonates with me partly because of my experience as a rider and someone who makes his living from my industry. Many parallels, and it's obvious to me that passion is a requirement for longevity in both.
Les, I have come to greatly admire you for your passion for the industry.

[Buffalohump]

Gray turd... personally I think it has a certain ring to it!

[Buffalohump]

Very nice knife, can you tell us a bit more about it?

[shunsui]

Maybe in an attempt to allow people to pound square pegs in round holes there should be an OPEN DIVISION without all the fluff and nonsense ?

Heck, might be good for business.

[eastvillage]

Like said before, I too think there are two viewpoints towards the term tactical. One of them is marketing/knifeshow categories. In this respect Les is right in my opinion.
The other side are the knifemakers who design and build aknife with a specific function in mind and link this to a tactical knife.
Where I come from (western Europe), the term tactical has lost lots of it's appeal because of all the black painted cheap shit that has flouded the market. When people ask me what a tactical knife is, I tell them it's anything not shiny.

In my case I adopted the term "hard use knives". I think this desribes my knives in a much better way. It does not matter what kind of materials one uses and what the finish of the knife should be. It is also clear what the knife is designed for.

@buffalohump

This folder is designed and made by Gudy van Poppel, he lives in the Netherlands. Gudy is a custom knifemaker who specialises in damascus steel. This folder is his first run of grey turds. Gudy really hit a homerun with this design, his first run was sold in two weeks. Eon can probably tell you more about the knife itself.

[cbr900son]

I have to admit, I love reading "drama filled" threads...

BUT, I've actually learned a great deal as far as differences between tactical/presentation folders etc

Honestly I don't feel this is a real drama thread. Me and les disagree and IMO are carrying out a debate in a dignified way. The only thing drama about it was me calling him a snob and I regret that. I should have said a snobish attitude about this. Just like we all make a dumb mistake it doesn't mean we are dumb. For that I apologize. Its more of a point to where I agree with him on 90% of what he says but the other 10% I feel strongly in the other direction. I think there are general "rules" to classifications but nothing written in stone and les's view point after all his experiences are more about absolute set rules.