best training vid I've seen

[sumtinfancy]

Check these guys out, I love their training blades and really like the look of how they're training.It seems so much more realistic that the usual choreographed stuff.What do you think gentlemen? I have no experience training with edged weapons but this video amongst others by these fellas is making me want to get into this.Would it be of any benefit if me and a few friends were to do this kind of training without any formal instruction,I mean just get out and spar the way these guys are doing and just try and copy the techniques they're using?

Any idea what type of bladed instrument would be the real/functional equivalent to what they're using, right at the beginning of the vid he shows a real machete alongside the trainer, anyone know exactly what type it is.

All you guys who train with edged weapons/are into Filipino martial arts please give me as much info/guidance as you can.Thank you all kindly.

[SeaxyBeast]

My 2¢ just to get things started.

There's a lot to like in the vids. I like that these guys are very 'blade aware' in their training. I like that they have a lot of different skill levels represented and that the guys with less skill are getting some shots against the better guys because that definitely happens. Skill is not proof against things going badly. That fact, combined with a sober assessment of the damage that would be done in real life with a machete strike to those targets should give anyone a lot to think about and lend some seriousness to the 'playing' that we see on the vids.

They show 'sparring' but what you are really seeing here are essentially duels. I imagine they also train in mixed groups and multiple opponents and that they do situational training in which opponents are not starting out even and at a distance from one another. The speed and the dueling is 'realistic' in that it demonstrates skills you would see if two people were dueling with bolos or at some stages of a fight where two people had machetes, but it does not realistically represent either an actual attack or actual combat using similar blades in most cases.

You could get together with friends and try to recreate the skills here and pick up enough to be better than you would be without that experience. You can learn some things from watching and a few more things from trial-and-error recreations. But it will be slower going than it would be were you to train with one of the group's instructors and you and your friends will pick up a lot of bad habits along the way that will be hard to un-train if you ever do find a competent instructor. Some of those bad habits may be quirky enough to make you dangerous and others may be no trouble against an unskilled opponent and be a serious flaw going up against someone who knows what s/he is doing. You won't know the difference and you won't know it's a flaw until it's too late.

Practice is better than no-practice, but is not as valuable as trained skill from a competent instructor. It's sometimes hard to recognize competence in the early stages. Those early stages last longer than you might expect. (I'm not much beyond there myself, and still suffer from it at times).

The worst flaw that one gets from being self-taught or taught with friends is that one has no clear idea of the true level of one's competence. Real training is a far more humbling experience than you usually get with a group of friends messing around. Messing around is a problem if it gives you enough confidence to get into a situation you would have otherwise avoided with no practice. It may help some if the trouble is unavoidable, but most of the guys I've known who wanted to train in their buddy's backyard and 'just teach themselves' were also the ones that inevitably started looking for ways to test what they had learned. Many of them did not like the answers they found when they did finally find that test.

[sumtinfancy]

There's a lot to like in the vids. I like that these guys are very 'blade aware' in their training. I like that they have a lot of different skill levels represented and that the guys with less skill are getting some shots against the better guys because that definitely happens. Skill is not proof against things going badly. That fact, combined with a sober assessment of the damage that would be done in real life with a machete strike to those targets should give anyone a lot to think about and lend some seriousness to the 'playing' that we see on the vids.

Well I'm new to this whole training with edged weapons stuff but from what I've seen their training is the best simulation of real combat that I've come across thus far,I think their "blade awareness" is a result of the type of training they are doing i.e actually getting hit with objects that no doubt sting somewhat when a clean strike is taken thereby forcing the student to learn to avoid getting tagged and to be aware of the opponents weapon.

They show 'sparring' but what you are really seeing here are essentially duels. I imagine they also train in mixed groups and multiple opponents and that they do situational training in which opponents are not starting out even and at a distance from one another. The speed and the dueling is 'realistic' in that it demonstrates skills you would see if two people were dueling with bolos or at some stages of a fight where two people had machetes, but it does not realistically represent either an actual attack or actual combat using similar blades in most cases.

In some parts of the world it's not uncommon at all for both parties to start out in a real fight facing one another machetes in hand similar to the duelling in the vids,but yes as far as a western urban scenario is concerned its highly unlikely to go down like that.

You could get together with friends and try to recreate the skills here and pick up enough to be better than you would be without that experience. You can learn some things from watching and a few more things from trial-and-error recreations. But it will be slower going than it would be were you to train with one of the group's instructors and you and your friends will pick up a lot of bad habits along the way that will be hard to un-train if you ever do find a competent instructor. Some of those bad habits may be quirky enough to make you dangerous and others may be no trouble against an unskilled opponent and be a serious flaw going up against someone who knows what s/he is doing. You won't know the difference and you won't know it's a flaw until it's too late.

Yes I agree, but being better than you otherwise would be without any kind of practice means that any flaws picked up through being self taught are inconsequential, it might be an idea to see if there are any training dvd's available for guidance though rather than just going at it without any type of instruction whatsoever. Any idea which if any of the traditional Filipino arts would be similar to this kind of training?

Practice is better than no-practice, but is not as valuable as trained skill from a competent instructor. It's sometimes hard to recognize competence in the early stages. Those early stages last longer than you might expect. (I'm not much beyond there myself, and still suffer from it at times).

Yes again I agree 100%. I guess I need to do some research as to which style would be best suited to the type of thing I want to do, I have a club near me that teach Filipino arts but am not sure if they would teach one weapon or if a study of the various weapons would be required as part of the whole curriculum.

The worst flaw that one gets from being self-taught or taught with friends is that one has no clear idea of the true level of one's competence. Real training is a far more humbling experience than you usually get with a group of friends messing around.

You see the problem I have is I'm not experienced with Filipino arts, I don't know if the way these guys are training is based on a particular traditional style or if they've developed their own system.You see when it comes to unarmed combat (without wanting to get into the whole "which art or combination of arts/combat sports works best for real self protection" discussion) I'm confident I know what works and what doesn't but when it comes to edged weapons training I don't think I'd be able to sift through the bull as easily as I would with empty hands training, to be honest from a lot of what I've seen the blde training doesn't seem real and that is why this style really caught my attention, this stuff seems to have stripped the edged weapon training down to to the actual functional aspect of it and done away with much of what is not needed.Its pressure testing bladed training in a safe way but not totally pain free.

Messing around is a problem if it gives you enough confidence to get into a situation you would have otherwise avoided with no practice. It may help some if the trouble is unavoidable, but most of the guys I've known who wanted to train in their buddy's backyard and 'just teach themselves' were also the ones that inevitably started looking for ways to test what they had learned. Many of them did not like the answers they found when they did finally find that test.

I hear what your saying but I think I'm old enough and wise enough by now not to fall into that trap even if I do say so myself, I've got nothing to prove to anyone and am quite aware of the serious nature and the consequences of getting involved with that kind of juvenile delinquency. Your point is a valid one though and the risk you highlight could well be a real one for some, especially the young and foolish amongst us, those with more testosterone than sense should take note

[sirahren]

Oh you really wanted feedback on this... I thought you were just messing around.

Why not take fencing? The worst thing about their 'style' seems to be how much they are over extending and how much power they are putting behind some shots. Which i can remember as a kid is natural when sword fighting to get max stinging. It seems, as much as one can tell, that they missed some obvious slashes in order to wind up and get power behind their strikes.

But I got no idea what these guys skill level is, and just watched a few clips. I think any Eskrima type class will be better than learning of the internet. But learning off the internet will be better than knowing nothing. Like most fighting, really pay attention to footwork. The story goes that Bruce Lee was so impressed with the footwork of Fencers he tried to incorporate it into jute keen do. And in MMA and UFC today you see slight advantages sometimes going to those that have trained in Karate and tae kwan do, (in addition to wrestling/bjj/boxing/muaythai) because their footwork is more flexible and they can launch attacks from all sorts of positions.

[ecos]

I have no experience training with edged weapons but this video amongst others by these fellas is making me want to get into this.Would it be of any benefit if me and a few friends were to do this kind of training without any formal instruction,I mean just get out and spar the way these guys are doing and just try and copy the techniques they're using?

First let me preface this by saying I by no means consider myself any type of expert with self defense.

I wouldn't try to "copy" what these guys are doing, but I definitely think getting out and sparring is a good thing. You won't quickly learn the technical aspects but you will definitely increase your reflexes and get a feel for the length of the "blade" etc.

I did practice this type of stuff for over 10yrs. My dad made us some foam wrapped pvc pipe "swords" when I was around 6yrs old and we started having mock battles. It was so much fun me, my dad, and friends did it almost daily into my late teens. At first it was entirely play (I was 6) but as time progressed we got a bit more serious about it. Our reflexes got pretty good, we got good at judging the exact distance the opponent could strike, and which moves tended to land.

IMHO a combination of classroom stuff, and plain 'ol messing around sparring is a good combination. I see too many people practice forms in a classroom but when it comes to an actual contest they don't know what works. For example I met a guy in my teens that had years of martial arts training behind him, I guess he had formal training in sword/stick fighting. He was fairly contemptuous with practicing without training. One day me and him had a match. Right away I smacked his fingers. We started over. I smacked them again. After a few times he got upset and said hitting his fingers was not fair. He felt only attacks to vital organs and such should be used. My argument is its hard to hold a sword with severed fingers (or a stick with broken fingers).

I'm in no way putting down formal training, good formal training can be great. But mediocre formal training can overlook a lot of things or get so stuck on one style that they almost expect your opponent to always use the same style.

Its cheap, its fun, and it will help hone your reflexes for when you get formal training. Just be careful, even with padded plastic injuries can occur. I manged to break my dads fingers a few times. My friend got his testicle knocked up inside him. I managed to get stabbed in the back of the throat with a padded stick (battle cries when charging look impressive right up to the point you get a sword in the mouth), etc.

[SeaxyBeast]

Yes I agree, but being better than you otherwise would be without any kind of practice means that any flaws picked up through being self taught are inconsequential, it might be an idea to see if there are any training dvd's available for guidance though rather than just going at it without any type of instruction whatsoever. Any idea which if any of the traditional Filipino arts would be similar to this kind of training

Yes again I agree 100%. I guess I need to do some research as to which style would be best suited to the type of thing I want to do, I have a club near me that teach Filipino arts but am not sure if they would teach one weapon or if a study of the various weapons would be required as part of the whole curriculum.

You see the problem I have is I'm not experienced with Filipino arts, I don't know if the way these guys are training is based on a particular traditional style or if they've developed their own system.You see when it comes to unarmed combat (without wanting to get into the whole "which art or combination of arts/combat sports works best for real self protection" discussion) I'm confident I know what works and what doesn't but when it comes to edged weapons training I don't think I'd be able to sift through the bull as easily as I would with empty hands training, to be honest from a lot of what I've seen the blde training doesn't seem real and that is why this style really caught my attention, this stuff seems to have stripped the edged weapon training down to to the actual functional aspect of it and done away with much of what is not needed.Its pressure testing bladed training in a safe way but not totally pain free.

Check out their site and they tell you a bit about their training backgrounds. Looks like there are a couple of styles of FMA in the mix along with some fencing and some ARMA style historical fencing recreations. They say that what they do is built up from cross-training. I see a lot of fencing influence in the footwork (pretty linear) and there isn't a lot of the close range flow-and-passing that you get in the more stick-oriented styles. This has that sort of cross-trained feel to it.

A lot of Filipino technique doesn't translate into exact styles. Individuals would develop a style out of personalizing what their teacher(s) showed them based on their own abilities. Strict styles are a more modern thing as far as I've been able to see. What gets passed on follows personal lines and is given to known associates.

I know some FMA groups do associate programs where people can form study groups and be given learning material to work with on your own, but most of those programs have some sort of commitment to travel to seminars/conferences or host a visit so that you get someone with knowledge coming in to check progress and help weed out the errors and misunderstandings. Chances are, though, that none of those will look like what these guys are doing. You need someone with some skill to organize and lead this sort of cross-training IMO.

[Konz81]

Well, i have some friends that train in knife fighting. One thing i learned is, it doesnt matter if you are a master or a beginner, everybody gets cut. i dont believe that knife fighting as we see it in training vids, dojos or movies ever happens like this. it mostly ends up in wildly stabbing or slashing, almost never a block. but, as sad before, some training is better than none. about the machete fighting. unless you live in africa or a place where you carry a machete around all the time, its useless. better to train with a training knife with the same size blade as your edc blade, fixed or folder. so you can get used to the reach and feel of the blade.

well, thats my opinion. might be wrong. i am a guy who brings a gun to a knife fight

[sumtinfancy]

Thanks guys for your valuable input, yes after having taken a look at their website it's clear they don't base their system on any single traditional fighting style rather they mix and match and use what they find to be effective in their sparring.These guys seem to be the MMA equivalent of the weapons world.

Here's a bit about their outlook taken from their website

A.C.T. is about giving the student the tools to handle himself/herself in combat with weapons. Not to merely perform the kata or drills with perfect precision, but rather to actually be able to fight with the weapons taught in the curriculum.

Translation? We teach people how to fight with weapons.


The main idea is that if you want to learn how to fight, you'd better include just that in your training – fighting.

You could learn how to handle a weapon by practicing the same movements over and over again but you can't become a fighter until you fight a committed opponent. No amount of kata or exercises will prepare you for that. While teaching you what to do with the weapon, repeating pre set patterns alone will not give you the answer of how to apply the learned material in combat.


Closing the distance, maintaining the distance, feinting attacks, reading your opponent, charging, evading, timing, control, speed, power, agility of the mind as well as that of the body, the simple, yet all important matter of overcoming your fear while your opponent is trying to take your head off, stab you or break your bones - all of these can not be taught without rigorous sparring with as few limitations as possible.


THAT is what A.C.T. is all about.

You can't be sure, that you actually know what you are doing, until you have fought against a committed opponent who is trying to hit you as hard as possible. Everything taught is tested through sparring and pressure scenarios and we provide the conditions for these to be as realistic as it gets.

A key component in creating the proper testing grounds is the use of accurate weapons simulators. Our weapon simulators - trainers allow us to practice actual combat with minimal protection (extremely important) while maintaining the proper weight, size, balance and the very shape of the simulator with respect to the weapon it represents.

we teach modern weapons as well as more traditional arsenal and combine ideas and concepts from both Asian and western martial arts. The 7 weapons taught as part of our curriculum are: Knife, Machete, Katana, Two handed sword, Spear, Medium staff and Tactical baton.

I've tried contacting one of their instructors but have't had a response as of yet but I'm gonna keep trying till I get a hold of him.


SeaxyBeast, what do you think of their training machetes, the ones they use to spar with? I know your after one and their's do seem well made and able to stand up well to a thrashing.I dunno if they're available for sale though, it might be worth finding out.

Here is some of the stuff they use to train with

[2edgesword]

My focus would be training with a weapon you can legally and practically carry.

[SeaxyBeast]

SeaxyBeast, what do you think of their training machetes, the ones they use to spar with? I know your after one and their's do seem well made and able to stand up well to a thrashing.I dunno if they're available for sale though, it might be worth finding out.

Here is some of the stuff they use to train with [...]

It's hard to tell much about the trainers from the vids. I've got a couple hard bolo trainers that aren't practical for sparring that are similar in size but feel very different. I've also handled some latex costume/role-playing swords that looked great but were way too light to feel realistic.

Most of our hard sparring with longer blades is done with Actionflex swords/sticks. They, too, are a little light, but they teach distance and you don't want to get hit with one if you are sparring without pads. For knife training we use Nok Training knives and go pretty close to all out.

[WindyCityKali]

Anytime anyone does sparring with reality-based weapons (and a machete is very reality based for the U.S. - even in the 21st century), I'm in favor of it.

Here's the only downside I see - those guys stand right in front of each other. I see no angling off, like you would do in in something that was Filipino based. Everything I saw in those two vids were very linear. Which is fine! I've seen enough to know that you can't say "That's wrong" unless it's very beyond the pale.

But to me, I don't want to stand in front of a guy with a pointed piece of steel and go back and forth on the beat or half-beat. I'd like to try and get to some kind of angle. That being said - go for it. If that's what you have in your area, then train.

[automated ugug]

If that's what you have in your area, then train.

+1 ..actually training with contact is essential...

[2edgesword]

Anytime anyone does sparring with reality-based weapons (and a machete is very reality based for the U.S. - even in the 21st century),

Where do you live?

[sumtinfancy]

I don't want to disrespect anyone's martial art or anything but just to illustrate my point and to give an example of what I meant when I said a lot of the weapons based techniques I've seen seem unrealistic I want to post this clip.




From my experience with unarmed combat I can say that the unarmed technique this guy demonstrates is B.S when it comes to real fighting IMO, and that makes me wonder if the armed techniques he goes onto demonstrate are B.S as well?

[Jim D.]

When was the last time two guys stood toe to toe and swung swords/ machette's at each other? Lets exclude 3rd world countries from that question.

Sparing stuff is pretty detached from reality, in my opinion. Maybe you can pick up some skills through it, but the odds of finding yourself on equal armament, and equal initiative as your foe seem pretty unlikely to me (especially when we're talking about it being with contact weapons that aren't concealable).

[sumtinfancy]

Lets exclude 3rd world countries from that question.

I wish you hadn't added that exclusion yo your question as I really would like to have posted some videos of 3rd worlder dudes going at it toe to toe with machetes,Oh well.


Sorry couldn't help myself

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=94c_1321287113

[ecos]

When was the last time two guys stood toe to toe and swung swords/ machette's at each other? Lets exclude 3rd world countries from that question.

Sparing stuff is pretty detached from reality, in my opinion. Maybe you can pick up some skills through it, but the odds of finding yourself on equal armament, and equal initiative as your foe seem pretty unlikely to me (especially when we're talking about it being with contact weapons that aren't concealable).

I agree the chances of getting into a machete fight are almost nonexistent. But many of the skills learned can be transferred to other objects like canes, sticks, umbrellas, etc. And the opponent doesn't have to have the same armament. You may be attacked by a guy with a knife when you're carrying a cane. The reflexes from sparring will help you know how far away you can strike your target, speed your swings, etc.

I live in an area where there are a fair amount of holdups and house breakins where they use a knife, not a gun. And its illegal for foreigners to own a gun so you are left with other means of defense. So in a situation like this it does make some sense.

[Black Knife]

When was the last time two guys stood toe to toe and swung swords/ machette's at each other? Lets exclude 3rd world countries from that question.

Sparing stuff is pretty detached from reality, in my opinion. Maybe you can pick up some skills through it, but the odds of finding yourself on equal armament, and equal initiative as your foe seem pretty unlikely to me (especially when we're talking about it being with contact weapons that aren't concealable).

So what are people supposed to do then if sparring, in your opinion, is a waste of time? What realistic training do you suggest? Have you sparred before and basing this off of your experience?

[Jim D.]

So what are people supposed to do then if sparring, in your opinion, is a waste of time? What realistic training do you suggest? Have you sparred before and basing this off of your experience?

Yes, I have sparred, but not with machettes.

When is anyone in their right mind going to stay at chopping range against a dude swinging a machette?

I would want to train aggressive entries to get right in against someone with a blade that big (worst case), using objects in my environment to create distractions (or projectiles) to create problems for them and escape or entry opportunities, I would want to train multiple attackers, confined space, etc.

I wouldn't want to stand there and trade chops with machettes, though, right at the range where they're the most effective.

[HeavyHanded]

Yes, I have sparred, but not with machettes.

When is anyone in their right mind going to stay at chopping range against a dude swinging a machette?

I would want to train aggressive entries to get right in against someone with a blade that big (worst case), using objects in my environment to create distractions (or projectiles) to create problems for them and escape or entry opportunities, I would want to train multiple attackers, confined space, etc.

I wouldn't want to stand there and trade chops with machettes, though, right at the range where they're the most effective.

That's a valid criticism. These guys aren't doing any entry stuff, blocking as a bridge, angular footwork, alive hand jamming etc. While I'm sure this type of work improves handeye coordination and reaction time, it doesn't seem too applicable to a real-world encounter. Even adapting the strike patterns to a smaller blade or improvised bludgeon (have practiced plenty of similar stuff using small EW and short stick) would be problematic because of the lack of support-hand work. I like that they make lots of contact. I'm not seeing much economy of movement or control. I get the feeling a dozen or so classes with a competent FMA instructor would transform how they execute.