best training vid I've seen

[HeavyHanded]

I don't want to disrespect anyone's martial art or anything but just to illustrate my point and to give an example of what I meant when I said a lot of the weapons based techniques I've seen seem unrealistic I want to post this clip.




From my experience with unarmed combat I can say that the unarmed technique this guy demonstrates is B.S when it comes to real fighting IMO, and that makes me wonder if the armed techniques he goes onto demonstrate are B.S as well?

I'm not seeing anything too unrealistic - basic redirections, conservative footwork, with some joint manipulation. I guess some of the follow-up stuff might look overdone, but all the important stuff happens in the first half second or so of each exchange. The EW stuff looks pretty basic as well. Very similar to FMA and it should be considering they evolved alongside each other. Having taken some Silat and used other forms against the other students in open sparring, it holds up quite well in use - at least as taught by that instructor.

[SeaxyBeast]

That's a valid criticism. These guys aren't doing any entry stuff, blocking as a bridge, angular footwork, alive hand jamming etc. While I'm sure this type of work improves handeye coordination and reaction time, it doesn't seem too applicable to a real-world encounter. Even adapting the strike patterns to a smaller blade or improvised bludgeon (have practiced plenty of similar stuff using small EW and short stick) would be problematic because of the lack of support-hand work. I like that they make lots of contact. I'm not seeing much economy of movement or control. I get the feeling a dozen or so classes with a competent FMA instructor would transform how they execute.

It's a short vid on YouTube. It can't show everything they do. What's there has some training merit. It's not a realistic defense scenario, but it's also not teaching bad techniques. It's just incomplete. They may have more close range skills and alive hand jams and just not be showing them here because they are concentrating on distance and timing in these training sessions. If they are giving their true backgrounds on their website it's pretty clear that the instructors know a fair number of these skills and more. I won't assume that what we see is anything like the whole range of what they do.

And I think there's something to be said for not showing everything in a public vid. I'm not giving away any hard won truth to a stranger I know nothing about to use in ways I can't predict. IMO that sort of knowledge needs to be earned.

[Jim D.]

It's a short vid on YouTube. It can't show everything they do. What's there has some training merit. It's not a realistic defense scenario, but it's also not teaching bad techniques. It's just incomplete. They may have more close range skills and alive hand jams and just not be showing them here because they are concentrating on distance and timing in these training sessions. If they are giving their true backgrounds on their website it's pretty clear that the instructors know a fair number of these skills and more. I won't assume that what we see is anything like the whole range of what they do.

And I think there's something to be said for not showing everything in a public vid. I'm not giving away any hard won truth to a stranger I know nothing about to use in ways I can't predict. IMO that sort of knowledge needs to be earned.

Right on.

I wasn't saying that there is no merit or benefit in practicing the skills that they're working, just responding to the OP's comment on it having a level of "realism", mostly.

It's like going to the range and shooting bullseyes... not especially a real world defensive scenario, but the skills you are developing DO translate to more real world applications.

Sparring has a place, but to suggest that any sparring like that is realistic is what I disagreed with.

[sumtinfancy]

I'm not seeing anything too unrealistic - basic redirections, conservative footwork, with some joint manipulation. I guess some of the follow-up stuff might look overdone, but all the important stuff happens in the first half second or so of each exchange. The EW stuff looks pretty basic as well. Very similar to FMA and it should be considering they evolved alongside each other. Having taken some Silat and used other forms against the other students in open sparring, it holds up quite well in use - at least as taught by that instructor.

It seems to me that the empty had stuff he was demoing would only work against a completely passive opponent just like the one he was demoing on.

Sparring has a place, but to suggest that any sparring like that is realistic is what I disagreed with.

Well that all depends on what you consider realistic, for me using techniques against fully resisting opponents and making them work is real, so its real in the context of what they are practising and the rules they have chosen to impose on themselves, boxing to me is real but someone could argue that in a real no rules situation it's not entirely realistic, in that you are more likely to get tangled up into a grappling match and get taken to the ground rather than have an opponent who will stand and trade without attempting to grab hold.

The problem I have with much of what I have seen is that there is too much practice with compliant opponents and there is no way for such practitioners to know if they could make their techniques work against someone who ain't playing ball.

[HeavyHanded]

It's a short vid on YouTube. It can't show everything they do. What's there has some training merit. It's not a realistic defense scenario, but it's also not teaching bad techniques. It's just incomplete. They may have more close range skills and alive hand jams and just not be showing them here because they are concentrating on distance and timing in these training sessions. If they are giving their true backgrounds on their website it's pretty clear that the instructors know a fair number of these skills and more. I won't assume that what we see is anything like the whole range of what they do.

Yes and no, they advertise realistic application. I have no idea how much they're not showing, but the video isn't showing much. Yes, they might be electing to omit alive hand stuff, but the linear footwork sets off some alarms. Contrast that with some footage from a Dog Brother's meet and the difference is quite large.

[HeavyHanded]

It seems to me that the empty had stuff he was demoing would only work against a completely passive opponent just like the one he was demoing on.

Using it on a boxing style opponent has its challenges, and I'm not enamored of Silat in general, but - it is and can be highly effective. One of the features you'll see is how his blocks actually cause his opponent to loose a beat, this is very useful. My Kali instructor used similar technique, and so did my first MA instructor. Generally speaking that sort of application work a lot better if you lead a strike and play off of your opponents block (this is a very effective application), as a block is slower. If they have fast hands it becomes necessary to jam them at the elbow or as far up the forearm as possible, but it still works. Generally its a redirection, a hit or jam to the attacking arm, and a counter - all with active footwork. It would be nice to see it used in a more dynamic setting on the video, but I have seen it used in open sparring. The footwork and angling used by the guy in the video looks good too - simple but effective. The elbow lock and hand sweep technique is not going to come off that easy but IMHO, the important stuff is the first half second or so of each counter.

[SeaxyBeast]

Yes and no, they advertise realistic application. I have no idea how much they're not showing, but the video isn't showing much. Yes, they might be electing to omit alive hand stuff, but the linear footwork sets off some alarms. Contrast that with some footage from a Dog Brother's meet and the difference is quite large.

Sure. I did mention that their footwork was very fencing influenced in my earlier reply and I believe that's a valid observation. I'm just not willing to pass judgment on their organization's style or methodology as a whole based solely on the vid. I'd have to see a lot more or train with them to do that. And while I do see limitations in the approach they are showing on those vids I also see some pretty good things that have to do with their understanding of how having a blade changes some of the dynamics you learn from fighting with a stick.

Dog Brothers is a good point of comparison. They seem like a really good bunch and they are very dedicated in their approach to learning how well what they have learned actually works with sticks. But what they learn in full contact stick fights evolves out of what you can do with a stick going hard with a partner. Some of the people they talk to in their 'Grandfathers Speak' videos learned the reality of actual combat with live blades and those people have said that the two (stick and blade) are not the same. Blades have a different dynamic and those differences can affect footwork and strategy. No slight to the Dog Brothers. I've got nothing but respect for them and for the people who do that. Just what I've been told and shown.

Good conversation, though. I'm glad we're having it.

[HeavyHanded]

Sure. I did mention that their footwork was very fencing influenced in my earlier reply and I believe that's a valid observation. I'm just not willing to pass judgment on their organization's style or methodology as a whole based solely on the vid. I'd have to see a lot more or train with them to do that. And while I do see limitations in the approach they are showing on those vids I also see some pretty good things that have to do with their understanding of how having a blade changes some of the dynamics you learn from fighting with a stick.

Dog Brothers is a good point of comparison. They seem like a really good bunch and they are very dedicated in their approach to learning how well what they have learned actually works with sticks. But what they learn in full contact stick fights evolves out of what you can do with a stick going hard with a partner. Some of the people they talk to in their 'Grandfathers Speak' videos learned the reality of actual combat with live blades and those people have said that the two (stick and blade) are not the same. Blades have a different dynamic and those differences can affect footwork and strategy. No slight to the Dog Brothers. I've got nothing but respect for them and for the people who do that. Just what I've been told and shown.

Good conversation, though. I'm glad we're having it.

Agreed, I hope I'm not coming off as too dismissive of these guys in general - the OP posted a vid and that's all I'm responding to. As you say, I'd have to see whole lot more before making too many sweeping statements, and even then that's not something I tend to do much of anyway (I hope?).

The Dog Brothers have great foundational skills. If I have anything critical to say, its that they appear far too reckless when closing. Minus the head-gear and using hardwood instead of rattan, not too many of those takedowns would be successful. The effective continuing action at every possible level of contact is what makes them so impressive (to me).

True enough, swapping an EW for a stick is going to change some of the technique. I'd still imagine some of the structural stuff should be the same - short stem on the strikes, angled footwork to get to the zero pressure areas, bridging the gap, controlling the opponents attacking arm.

Its all good, when the rubber hits the road there's a lot to be said for going hard with lots of contact.

[HeavyHanded]

I took a look at some of the other Silat videos from the instructor sumptinfancy didn't much care for. Gotta say, the man appears to know his stuff. Its easy to see the more involved takedowns and locks and imagine they're not realistic, but the guy has a lot of fairly simple and very hard-hitting technique. Here's a nice example - his footwork, angling, and hand speed are all first rate.



I never got into weapons or disarms at the Silat class I took, but the Kali I learned is very similar. My Kali instructor tended to downplay disarms - the best disarm is when they guy hits the ground hard. But that said, they were included in just about every empty hands vs knife drill, as were sweeps or throws and joint manipulation. The emphasis was always on the initial redirection, footwork/angling, and counter. Once they've lost a beat or better yet their balance, you can move on to the finishing technique.

Here's another:

[HeavyHanded]

I had to throw in one more vid that shows some unarmed and flexible technique. This guy moves so much like my first MA instructor its uncanny.

[WindyCityKali]

I absolutely love empty hand kali. I like some silat as well.

The problem with empty hand kali is that it doesn't work on everyone. when it works, you're a freakin' magician. It's great. when you start trying to mess with people's hands and wrists with a real, no-shit boxer it all falls apart. Because you have to have time to mess with people's hands and arms and a boxer is all about fast retraction.

But not everyone is a boxer. Not everyone is a good boxer. And against most people, FMA works great. But just in case, be ready to dust off some boxing skills as well.

[sumtinfancy]

I took a look at some of the other Silat videos from the instructor sumptinfancy didn't much care for. Gotta say, the man appears to know his stuff. Its easy to see the more involved takedowns and locks and imagine they're not realistic, but the guy has a lot of fairly simple and very hard-hitting technique. Here's a nice example - his footwork, angling, and hand speed are all first rate.

Maybe its just my untrained eye but those knife disarms and take downs look unrealistic beyond belief, the guy he is demonstrating on is compliant to the point of being submissive if that makes sense,I know its not sparring but judging by that drill/technique demo anyone would think that taking a knife away from a bigger opponent is easier than taking a lollipop away from a 3 year old.In fact I'm sure my 3 year old would put up more of a fight than that guy did.Yes to learn a technique it needs to be practised with compliance but at the same time the technique itself must be effective against resistance and I just cant see any of that working against someone who who is non compliant in the slightest.

[SpiderBait2727]

Maybe its just my untrained eye but those knife disarms and take downs look unrealistic beyond belief, the guy he is demonstrating on is compliant to the point of being submissive if that makes sense,I know its not sparring but judging by that drill/technique demo anyone would think that taking a knife away from a bigger opponent is easier than taking a lollipop away from a 3 year old.In fact I'm sure my 3 year old would put up more of a fight than that guy did.Yes to learn a technique it needs to be practised with compliance but at the same time the technique itself must be effective against resistance and I just cant see any of that working against someone who who is non compliant in the slightest.

My first response was the same and yeah he's going easy and the uki is just letting go. But then I took another look and that first technique looks a whole lot like a really old nerve strike in jjj. Striking at the same time to the interior meridian on the wrist and the throat just under the jaw causes a short circuit that makes a determined and trained opponent stand stock still for a couple seconds, it's like a reset button. A whole lot of the other magicy looking stuff could be nerve strikes as well. Video quality is crud and angles are not the best so I cant say he is making nerve strikes for sure. But if he is it would explain the lack of "energy" from both parties. Uki-ing for that crap sux and you've gotta be careful or people get really hurt. just saying.

[Daniel L]

I'd be willing to bet that what truly works under pressure at real speed and intent looks vastly different to what we're seeing.
Even in the OP videos, if the guys were using wooden sparring swords the movements would be very different.

Is it useful? In a modern context where most of us have limited training time, I'd rather spend my time on unarmed combatives (Kelly McCann / WWII style / Krav Maga) and pistol. OC spray and then maybe club and knife.

A friend of mine was stationed in a role in Papa New Guinea - he has no training whatsoever, and fortunately for him the invading local's .45 went "click" instead of "bang" and my friend's machete hit his attackers head. If you can hammer nails and hit a tennis ball, there's reasonable transferable skills for when SHTF.

But I totally understand many of us want to attain a level of mastery that is far beyond the average person.

[HeavyHanded]

I absolutely love empty hand kali. I like some silat as well.

The problem with empty hand kali is that it doesn't work on everyone. when it works, you're a freakin' magician. It's great. when you start trying to mess with people's hands and wrists with a real, no-shit boxer it all falls apart. Because you have to have time to mess with people's hands and arms and a boxer is all about fast retraction.

But not everyone is a boxer. Not everyone is a good boxer. And against most people, FMA works great. But just in case, be ready to dust off some boxing skills as well.

A fast boxer (or any well-trained adversary for that matter) makes any sort of trapping very difficult. That's where footwork, low kicks, and other measures, like stealing their advance have to come in. As I said, this sort of thing works far far better if you can play off of a defensive reaction as opposed to attempting a high-speed jam.

[HeavyHanded]

Maybe its just my untrained eye but those knife disarms and take downs look unrealistic beyond belief, the guy he is demonstrating on is compliant to the point of being submissive if that makes sense,I know its not sparring but judging by that drill/technique demo anyone would think that taking a knife away from a bigger opponent is easier than taking a lollipop away from a 3 year old.In fact I'm sure my 3 year old would put up more of a fight than that guy did.Yes to learn a technique it needs to be practised with compliance but at the same time the technique itself must be effective against resistance and I just cant see any of that working against someone who who is non compliant in the slightest.

Get some time in with even one very qualified instructor and you'll think a bit differently. I'm glad my wakeup call came training in a friend's backyard instead of on the street. Stripped down to the essentials this stuff works surprisingly well, but does require lots of hands-on. I myself tend to do more of a redirect, hit, and away when facing a weapon, but I also train to close and demolish, cause you never know if escape is going to be an option.
Disclaimer, I'm no bad a$$ but know it when I see it, and can execute well enough for a third rate.

Edit to add what I mean by a "wake-up call". When I was 18 or so I had a friends who's older brother was "into that Kung Fu stuff". Well he found out that much like most of my peers I carried a knife, but that I also had taken some fencing, had wrestled in HS, had spent countless hours getting into some very nasty fights with my older brothers (some resulting in blood shed), and most importantly I'd never had any formal MA training. He wanted to know how his skillset would work against someone that had no MA reactions or inclinations learned and outside of a Dojo environment. We made a dummy knife and went right to it in his backyard. My first strike I remember thinking "I'm just gonna lunge deep and stick him". Next thing I'm wondering how he got behind me. It turned into a long afternoon, I went home with sneaker prints on my forearms, backside, stomach, and ribcage - at one point he lifted me entirely off the ground with a side kick. At the end of the day I'd manged to make some light contact on a number of passes and in return he'd have killed me - going so far as to pass my attacking hand, grab my head with both hands and twisted mo to the dirt on one exchange.

This was a wake-up call. Until then every so called martial artist I'd personally known had a throw or two and a kick or two I'd never seen, but they couldn't really apply them any better than I could with my existing background. This guy could move like smoke, his hand speed was tremendous, he could apply pressure points and joint manipulation at sparring speed, could transition from kicks to hands with no hesitation. And he was only 21 years old and about 30 pounds over weight. "I am a punk, and so are 99% of my peers" was my thought. Time to get serious.

[SeaxyBeast]

Maybe its just my untrained eye but those knife disarms and take downs look unrealistic beyond belief, the guy he is demonstrating on is compliant to the point of being submissive if that makes sense...

Just commenting on this part, those sorts of disarms are both easier and more difficult than they look. Easier, because they don't require a lot of force and the instructor is doing a lot of less obvious things with movement and disruption of the opponent's intent that make it work. (You'd be surprised at the number of disarms that happen by accident in sparring when you are just going for a block and trying to avoid being cut). What I've been taught is that demo's and drills aren't meant to demonstrate what to do in a fight, they are meant to demonstrate a technique -- to teach you what it feels like and give you reps for building muscle memory. The follow-ups are there more to train the body to keep moving and not freeze after 'getting the technique' than they are to show how a fight would go after getting it.

Those sorts of disarms are harder than they look because depth perception can get pretty screwed by the adrenaline dump and if the attacker is wary and less than fully committed to the strike you can miss the disarm and either cut your hand or lose control of the weapon arm and be back to playing catch-up or be out of position and open to the counter. You need to be aware of this and have a plan beyond the disarm for what to do if it doesn't work.