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Thread: Am I being petty that this bothers me?

  1. #1
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    Question Am I being petty that this bothers me?


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    First off let me say I am not a steel snob..Im just fine with carrying a knife made from 1065 or a piece of car spring..I have always been as honest and upfront about what materials I use as possible..Lisa is the same way..
    Maybe Im being petty when it bothers me when I see people call 1045(or the like) "High carbon" steel or "Tool Steel" Its nowhere near high carbon and it dang sure aint tool steel.A hammer manufacturer I know of calls 1045 "Tool Steel"....Then I always see things like "1080 tool steel"...."1095 Tool Steel"..Just because you can make a tool from it does not make it tool steel and not being mild steel does not make it high carbon steel..
    I dont know. Maybe Im just being nit picky

  2. #2
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    I don't think you're being petty at all, I think you're absolutely right. It's very important for us to be clear and reasonably precise when we describe the materials and processes we use. Terms like "carbon-" or "stainless-" or "tool-" steel aren't interchangeable and generally not terribly useful. We're fortunate these days that the folks who buy our work are becoming more and more knowledgeable about the subtleties and differences, and I hope that continues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kentucky View Post
    First off let me say I am not a steel snob..Im just fine with carrying a knife made from 1065 or a piece of car spring..I have always been as honest and upfront about what materials I use as possible..Lisa is the same way...
    I totally agree.

    If it wasn't for people who want to the very best for their uses, and makers who are nit-picky about it, why would anyone bother with a handmade/custom knife at all?
    Terrio HandMade Knives subforum

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  3. #3
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    Snob.




    ha! Just messin.... 1045.... somebody forging railroad spikes again?
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin



    Rick Marchand
    ABS Apprentice Smith
    www.wildertools.com
    rickmarchand@wildertools.com

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Marchand View Post
    Snob.




    ha! Just messin.... 1045.... somebody forging railroad spikes again?
    Now that's just funny...
    So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand. Isaiah 41:10

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  5. #5
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    I think railroad spikes are closer to A36. That little bit of copper seems to help with "knife like" properties though.

    ... just practicing my snobbery.

  6. #6
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    I don't think it's petty, but at least they're telling you what steel is in it.
    I hate the ones that just say high carbon steel, or 440 stainless or "specially formulated" I instinctively think "if it was any good, they'd tell you exactly what the steel is, or give you the % of constituents." I also think if it says 440 and doesn't have the "C" then it ain't 440C.

  7. #7
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    When it comes to making knives:

    Low Carbon Steel - 5160

    Medium Carbon steel - 1084

    High Carbon steel - O1


  8. #8
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    I think you have been up in the hills too long.
    1045 is steel.
    A hammer is a tool.
    Terefore, a 1045 hammer is by it own name made from tool steel.

    Just kiddin', I get the same raised hackles when I see those claims.
    Stacy E.Apelt
    It is better to die fighting evil than to live under it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladsmth View Post
    1045 is steel.
    A hammer is a tool.
    Terefore, a 1045 hammer is by it own name made from tool steel.
    ... That's the first thing anyone has said around here in a long time that makes any sense.
    Last edited by Tai Goo; 04-17-2012 at 01:27 PM.

  10. #10
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    LOL, I knew somebody was gonna say it
    Quote Originally Posted by bladsmth View Post
    I think you have been up in the hills too long.
    1045 is steel.
    A hammer is a tool.
    Terefore, a 1045 hammer is by it own name made from tool steel.

    Just kiddin', I get the same raised hackles when I see those claims.

  11. #11
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    You can make a hawk from a railroad spike and a hawk is a tool. Therefore,… railroad spikes are tool steel.

    The HC on a spike doesn’t stand for “high carbon” steel,… it stands for “hard core” steel.

  12. #12
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    FWIW.

    Medium carbon steel-Approximately 0.30–0.59% carbon content.

    High carbon steel-Approximately 0.6–0.99% carbon content.
    90% of being smart, is knowing what you're dumb at.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_First_Timer View Post
    FWIW.

    Medium carbon steel-Approximately 0.30–0.59% carbon content.

    High carbon steel-Approximately 0.6–0.99% carbon content.
    You mean there’s more than one type of carbon? I thought they were supposed to use full strength carbon,... 100% pure metallurgical carbon.

    What a rip off!

    I knew there was something fishy going on… Thanks for the heads up. LOL
    Last edited by Tai Goo; 04-17-2012 at 05:55 PM.

  14. #14
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    Ok...well..what's the definition of "tool steel"? .7-1.5 carbon? Or just common tools made from it.

  15. #15
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    Carbon, Smarbon........... I once saw Superman (circia 50's) take a lump of coal and squeeze it into a diamond. Somewhere between a lump of coal and a diamond is a piece of tool steel.

    I guess it depends on how hard you squeeze it.

    Robert (Who can't squeeze as hard as I once did)
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  16. #16
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    According to the American Iron and Steel Institute tool steels generally have 0.7% to 1.5% carbon and are held to much higher tolerances than plain carbon steels and alloy steels..They are classified under one of the eleven or so tool steel header classifications..W,O,A,D,S,T,M,H,P,L,F and so on..

  17. #17
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    HC on RR spikes stands for the rail specifications for "High Carbon" spikes.....but that isn't the same as High Carbon steel. Standard track spikes are .08-.12% carbon. HC spikes are .20-.30% Most smiths use the term "Higher Carbon" when referring to spikes. The wives tale that they are 1060 is just that....a tale. ,They are more like 1030 or A36.

    Here is a good read for those who want to know these things:

    Section 2.2 SPECIFICATIONS FOR HIGH-CARBON STEEL TRACK SPIKES1 (1968)


    2.2.1 SCOPE (1968)


    a. These specifications cover high-carbon steel track spikes.


    b. A supplementary requirement, Article 2.2.14, of an optional nature is provided. It shall apply only when

    specified by the purchaser.


    AREMA Manual for Railway Engineering 5-2-5


    2.2.2 PROCESS (1968)


    The steel shall be made by one or more of the following processes: open-hearth, acid-bessemer, electric-furnace, basic-oxygen.


    2.2.3 CHEMICAL COMPOSITION (1968)


    The steel shall conform to the following requirements as to chemical composition:


    Carbon, min, percent:

    Acid-bessemer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.20

    Other processes (Article 2.2.2) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.30

    Copper, when specified under supplementary requirementArticle 2.2.14, min, percent . . . . . . . . . . . 0.20


    2.2.4 LADLE ANALYSIS (1968)


    a. A determination for carbon and copper, when copper is specified, shall be made of each heat of steel. This analysis shall be made from a test ingot taken during the pouring of the heat. The chemical composition thus determined shall be reported to the purchaser or his representative, and shall conform to the requirements specified in Article 2.2.3.


    b. When ladle analysis cannot be furnished, the manufacturer shall submit a report of the chemical

    analysis made on three spikes selected at random from each 10-ton lot.


    2.2.5 TENSILE PROPERTIES (1968)


    The manufacturer may, at his option, substitute tension tests for the chemical analysis specified in

    Article 2.2.3, in which case the finished spikes shall conform to the following requirements as to tensile

    properties:

    Tensile strength, min, psi. . . . . . . . . . . . 70,000

    Yield point, min, psi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.5 tensile strength

    Elongation in 2 in., min, percent . . . . . . 25


    2.2.6 BENDING PROPERTIES (1968)


    a. The body of a full-size finished spike shall stand being bent cold through 120 degrees around a pin, the diameter of which is not greater than the thickness of the spike without cracking on the outside of the

    bent portion.

    b. The head of a full-size finished spike shall stand being bent backwards to an angle of 55 degrees with the line of the face of the spike, without cracking on the outside of the bent portion.


    2.2.7 NUMBER OF TESTS (1968)


    a. When the option in Article 2.2.5 is exercised, one tension test shall be made from each 10-ton lot or

    fraction thereof.

    b. One bend test of each kind specified in Article 2.2.6a and Article 2.2.6b shall be made from each lot of 5 tons or fraction thereof.

    5-2-6 AREMA Manual for Railway Engineering


    2.2.8 RETESTS (1968)


    Spikes represented by bend tests failing to meet the requirements prescribed in Article 2.2.6a and Article 2.2.6b may be annealed and resubmitted. If the spikes fail to meet the third test, they shall be rejected.


    2.2.9 PERMISSIBLE VARIATIONS IN DIMENSIONS (1968)


    The finished spikes shall conform to the dimensions specified by the purchaser, subject to the permissible variations specified in Table 2-1.


    2.2.10 FINISH (1968)


    All finished spiked shall be straight, with well formed heads, sharp points and be free from injurious defects and shall be finished in a workmanlike manner.


    2.2.11 MARKING (1968)


    A letter or brand indicating the manufacturer and also the letters “HC”, indicating high carbon, shall be pressed on the head of each spike while it is being formed. When copper is specified, the letters “CU” shall be added.
    Last edited by Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith; 04-20-2012 at 05:20 AM.
    Stacy E.Apelt
    It is better to die fighting evil than to live under it.

  18. #18
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    Good info there Stacy..Im sort of a recycled steel junkie though I do my best to collect accurate information..Ive collected a lot of test readings on junkyard steels over the years..Though you cant rely on all car springs to be "this" or " that" the RR seems to be pretty consistant with their steels..They have requirements that have to be meet and often only one or two manufacturers that make certain parts..Like thier rail clips..Last I asked only two manufacturers make those clips and every spec sheet Ive seen on them place them squarely between 1055 and 1060 steel..Ive used a lot of them in the past for hawk bits and small axe heads..They have all behaved exactly as they should without fail..
    Now that Ive said that Ill be made a liar by one tomorrow..

  19. #19
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    I agree. Rail Road metals have a high degree of continuity and are reliable. The HC spikes have just enough carbon to harden with a water/brine quench. It won't make a straight razor, but it will make a nice simple hawk. T

    Spikes make decorative items and small hawks, the clips make hawk/axe bits, the rail makes anvils, and their cars bring us coal.....seems like the RR was thinking of knifemakers all the time.
    Stacy E.Apelt
    It is better to die fighting evil than to live under it.

  20. #20
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    I've got a whole box of RR HC spikes... Stacy has graciously invited me to stay with him and his family for a couple weeks while he teaches me how to make hawks, twisty-handle butter knives and steel giraffes... I'm going kilt shopping today!
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin



    Rick Marchand
    ABS Apprentice Smith
    www.wildertools.com
    rickmarchand@wildertools.com

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