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[allout]

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[USAFSP]

@CM
“I shoulda just beat feet and hopped some fences “
Situations like yours that have gone south have no one right answer. It turned out OK for you which is a good indication you did the correct thing(?). This is what I might have done in your case. This is a good example of how a threat to personal safety can come from unlikely places. I am not fond of armed private security. I have seen first hand some bad things happen to people once they are detained. I have had the numbers to dispatch of City PD and SO memorized since 1980. On my phone they are on speed dial. I would (loudly) tell the guard who I am calling and why. When the phone is answered I would say only the words “watch commander”. I would say something like “I have a firearm pointing at me and I feel my life is being threatened, will you help me?” Then I would do exactly what I am told. This communication can happen surprisingly quick. If someone other than a LEO points a firearm at me, we have a situation. This response is for this situation. If for example I am approached and told to look at the guy in the car 20' away only to see a shotgun pointed at me, I realize I am being robbed and everything in my possession will likely be lost, this is different. I am familiar with 911 services and I normally respect the chain of command. 99% of all emergencies should go through their system. A firearm pointing at someone (me in this case by a rent a cop) is the exception. I feel very confident that I would catch all forms of hell from friends and family if I handled things this way. I also believe the DA would have some paperwork in their office the very next work day on that security guard.


@CM
“if one cop opens fire, all his buddies do too”
OK so that has happened more than once, but there some stellar law enforcement personnel on duty protecting us. An they want to help us help ourselves, especially when things get thick. I have been around some of the most incompetent civil service cops that made me want to implode. I have for the most part seen some truly outstanding behavior.

Sounds like Lafayette, LA is like downtown Beirut... May I ask what it is that you do for a living?

[allout]

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[USAFSP]

Living down there I’d be on constant alert as well. I grew up in NYC and spent my weekends in the Bronx so I grew up used to urban insanity. I was a cop in MD after I got back from serving over-seas in the USAF. I worked mostly on the DC/Prince George’s County boarder which is like the wild West. I now live in Vancouver, BC with my lovely wife and like that I can finally breath a breath of fresh air. That said, East Hastings in Vancouver is one of the worst places I have been on the planet. There is an entire reality show on TV called The Beat that follows VPD on foot patrol in that area. It’s like you described that 24/7 grocery store in a 5 block radius around an area. I just avoid that area of town all together unless I’m driving through or on my bike during the day. It’s tough and I must say I have had more encounters as a civilian with street thugs since I have moved up here but they don’t carry guns up here for the most part and unlike when I was a kid, I’m more prepared to deal with potentially violent situations now. I’m really good at minding my own business though and when trouble finds me I take it on a case by case basis. I tend to not over-prepare because I think no matter what you do you’ll find that every situation is completely different and since you’re not a cop or a first responder where you’re dispatched into harm’s way, it’s highly unlikely you’ll really be ready for it when it does happen. You just can’t walk around expecting something to happen. It’s just no way to live.

Here’s a little film some college kid made about Hastings...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwJkqTZ5H_s

[killgar]

If I felt I needed to carry a weapon to leave my house I’d move.

Not to be confrontational but, if you could name a city in this country, or town for that matter, where law abiding citizens are perfectly safe to go out in public with no chance of being attacked by a violent criminal, I'd be very interested to know where such a utopia is.

[mwhich50]

Leaving the house with a "false sense of security" may not be such a bad thing if you have common sense. I carry a med-large locking folder everywhere I go.
After 30+ yrs as an adult I can say that I am not the type of person that would get sucked into a physical altercation with a stranger, or participate in a road rage scenario.
The chances of me/family becoming victims of a crime that also involves a true threat to our lives is extremely unlikely. Knowing that I possess a hidden, last ditch self-defense tool gives me additional confidence and peace of mind.
The confidence that I project plus my situational awareness skills, make me a less likely mark. Since I have stated that I would not use a knife unless my life was threatened, I am not sure what I would have to lose by having a knife out of sight and ready to protect my life. Most responsible adults (I stress responsible) that carry guns/weapons understand the high risk of prosecution and civil suits. I take EXTRA care to avoid situations in which my chances of having to use a weapon would be increased.

[Charlie Mike]

For folks with PTSD, that is how we live. I always have a plan to kill everyone I meet and it is updated every second.

[USAFSP]

Not to be confrontational but, if you could name a city in this country, or town for that matter, where law abiding citizens are perfectly safe to go out in public with no chance of being attacked by a violent criminal, I'd be very interested to know where such a utopia is.

That is a completely ridiculous question. There are so many I am not going to even justify listing them. I could take up an entire page of text just for that. It’s not about if you are safe or not, it’s can you react and take care of yourself? I read these forums all the time and they are packed full of people who think they can buy some fancy piece of gear, or carry a firearm or walk out of their front door on high alert and they are any safer from harm for doing so. You show me a civilian who walks out of their home with a pistol on their hip and I’ll show you an over-confident civilian that got attacked and died with their gun in it’s holster. You show me a guy that carries a knife in every pocket, a can of OC in a sheath on his hip and talks smack on a forum about how prepared they are, I’ll show you the same guy that pissed himself when held at knifepoint when he was robbed. It’s better to know where you are (situational and spatial awareness), vary your routines so it’s harder to track your daily habits and mind your own business. Your brain and instants are your best weapons, not some EDC kit you think is going to save your life. I prefer to enjoy life these days rather than walk around in condition red, or whatever name people like to give it. I survived Iraq, I survived as a cop in a really bad area for years. I just want to breath fresh air now and enjoy things I missed because I spent too many years worrying about things like this. When I’m out, if I sense trouble I immediately react and leave. If it finds me I take care of it on the spot. When your number is up though, it’s up. No amount of training can reverse that. I live with PTSD and part of managing that is accepting life as it comes rather than thinking every second is about being ready for war. I’m done with that part of my life. I carry a knife because I like knives. Could I use it against someone to save my life? Yes, but I can use a brick if there’s one in front of me. A brick just doesn’t fit in my pocket. I’m a peaceful guy now though. I gave up being the person I used to be. If living on constant alert is the way you want to go through life, then by all means have at it. Short of an apocalyptic event, I have been through the worst that I’ll likely ever see so these days I choose to enjoy life as it comes. Sorry to sound preachy but not all people think like others on this forum. I take a different approach now a days.

[mwhich50]

Not to be confrontational but, if you could name a city in this country, or town for that matter, where law abiding citizens are perfectly safe to go out in public with no chance of being attacked by a violent criminal, I'd be very interested to know where such a utopia is.

Florida Panhandle. It's not Eutopia (low pay area)but it is extremly safe, relatively speaking, lol.

[videl]

If you really feel the need put a couple of zip ties in your pocket, get good ones, cheapo's will break, but tie two together around someone's wrists and they are as good as any handcuff

[Gollnick]

handcuffing a non-cooperative person is, itself, an art. It's a dangerous thing to do. Police officers spend considerable training time on handcuffing. Handcuffing is a martial art unto itself. But just like any martial art, there are disarms, escapes, and even reversals. So, if you want to add handcuffs to your EDC kit, if you want to handcuff someone who attacks you, aside from the very real legal issues addressed nicely by previous posters, you'd better get yourself some good training in the art of handcuffing.

[mwerner]

Gollnick is quite right; when I took the PPCT instructor's course years ago, we spent one entire day of the four-day course on handcuffing. And that was with compliant subjects!
Every "resisting" I've ever been involved in was a prolonged 'rasslin match trying to get the guy cuffed, usually with sheer brute force.
'Tain't easy.
However, the OP does make a point; I've heard many a fellow officer say that most all coppers carry their weapon off duty but frequently leave the cuffs at home, whereas they may be of far more use than the firearm.

[killgar]

That is a completely ridiculous question. There are so many I am not going to even justify listing them. I could take up an entire page of text just for that.

Do you really know of a city or town where a person "can go out in public with NO chance of being attacked by a violent criminal" like I asked. My understanding of human nature is that wherever you find people, there is always the chance for violent crime. Whether it's rape, or robbery, assualt, or murder, humans can be a savage breed. And such savages can be anywhere. That's my understanding anyway.

I read these forums all the time and they are packed full of people who think they can buy some fancy piece of gear, or carry a firearm or walk out of their front door on high alert and they are any safer from harm for doing so.

We must read different threads. Many of the people that I encounter on this sub-forum are intelligent, mature individuals, with a good and realistic undersatanding of self-defense who take the subject very seriously. Sure, some people mistakenly believe as you have described, but I'm glad that they come here, pehaps after reading a bit they will realize their mistake.

You show me a civilian who walks out of their home with a pistol on their hip and I’ll show you an over-confident civilian that got attacked and died with their gun in it’s holster. You show me a guy that carries a knife in every pocket, a can of OC in a sheath on his hip and talks smack on a forum about how prepared they are, I’ll show you the same guy that pissed himself when held at knifepoint when he was robbed.

I have no doubt that there are many people who died even though they were armed. But there are also many people who are alive today, or saved themselves from being raped, because they were armed and used their weapons successfully.

I agree with you on a few points- Ones brain is ones best weapon/tool for staying alive. Using your wits to avoid or escape trouble is always preferable to getting into a fight. I don't think that you will find any disagreement on those two points from anyone on this forum.

Here is where I believe that we might differ- When I hear someone say "Carrying a weapon is not for me. I don't think that carrying a weapon is a good idea. I choose not to carry a weapon", my reaction is "More power to you. It's your life, it's your choice".

Perhaps I'm wrong but the impression I get from your last post is an attitude that says "My way is right. And anyone who thinks differently is wrong. It's stupid to carry a weapon for self-defense and anyone who does is just a foolish Charles Bronson wanna-be". But maybe my impression is wrong. All I have to go on are the words you posted.

Personally, I have no problem with people who think or choose to act differently than I do. I would never judge, or criticize, or ridicule such people. But that's just me.

I carry a knife because I like knives. Could I use it against someone to save my life? Yes, but I can use a brick if there’s one in front of me.

Does this mean that you recognize that no matter how careful you are to avoid trouble, that you STILL might need to use a weapon to survive or save your loved ones? If you recognize this, and if YOU are willing to use a weapon to fight for YOUR life, why are you so critical of those people who choose to carry a weapon for that very same reason?

[killgar]

Florida Panhandle. It's not Eutopia (low pay area)but it is extremly safe, relatively speaking, lol.

Not to nit-pick but, Byrd and Melanie Billings might disagree with you. Well, they really can't disagree with anything anymore.

Of course, they were murdered in their house and not out in public so that crime doesn't exactly fall under the specifics of my question.

And while that may have been an isolated incident, the fact is that it happened. They're dead. And I'm sure that being an "isolated incident" is no comfort to their grieving loved ones.

My point is, violent crime can happen ANYWHERE that you find people. I believe that people who choose to ignore this fact are living under a false sense of security (but I'm not including you in that description mwhich50 ). Of course if people want to believe that there are places where they are completely immune from violent crime, I really don't care. It's no skin off my back.

[CWL]

I'm not getting this at all, is the OP suggesting that we all carry handcuffs with us, as if we all know the escalation path to take to handcuff someone? What's the point or benefit to restrain someone who doesn't want to? How many people are trained to handcuff a uncooperative person? When did legal SD turn into a duty to detain?

I'm not a criminal and don't plan on becoming one, but if a non-LEO attempted to handcuff me, I'd probably fight to my last breath, or yours.

To me, if someone wants to handcuff me and they're not wearing police uniforms, they're planning on executing me after I become helpless.

[allout]

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[CL01]

Reading the posts in this thread have certainly been interesting/entertaining...

From my experience, most LEOs don't wear cuffs off-duty, though they may have them in their vehicle. I've been told both sides (Whether to carry them or not) & personally do not. I think the reason they don't (& why it might be connected to the subject matter) is the increased liability AND having to detain someone by themselves.

1. You don't have your radio with you, nor most of your other gear (Baton, OC, etc) & as has been mentioned, whether you're a civilian or an off-duty LEO, it's difficult enough cuffing someone that doesn't want to be when it's obvious to the alleged suspect that you're an on-duty LEO. Think of how you'd react if someone that hasn't identified themselves as a LEO wants to cuff you. Regardless of if you did something wrong or not, would you let someone cuff you w/o resistance?

2. Your actions of trying to cuff someone may very well escalate the situation into one where you might end up using ever increasing force & possibly deadly force & all because you wanted to physically detain someone with cuffs.

You're opening yourself up liability wise. Now, if the person committed murder or some other violent crime, that's a different story. I'm assuming you're talking about trespassing, theft, or something along those lines.

If I have no powers of arrest (Other than that of a citizen conducting a citizens arrest), I personally would not have cuffs on me. There's also the chance of making a false arrest. It's bad enough when a Dept. gets sued for unlawful detainment, I sure wouldn't want to go through getting sued personally for that w/o the backing of a LE agency.

Your cell phone is your friend. I'm pretty sure most cell phones have photo/video capability. Use that to ID the person, report it, & you now don't have the headache of getting sued, or hurt. I think the negative things that can happen far outweigh the positive, IMHO.

[allout]

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[USAFSP]

Do you really know of a city or town where a person "can go out in public with NO chance of being attacked by a violent criminal" like I asked. My understanding of human nature is that wherever you find people, there is always the chance for violent crime. Whether it's rape, or robbery, assualt, or murder, humans can be a savage breed. And such savages can be anywhere. That's my understanding anyway.

We must read different threads. Many of the people that I encounter on this sub-forum are intelligent, mature individuals, with a good and realistic undersatanding of self-defense who take the subject very seriously. Sure, some people mistakenly believe as you have described, but I'm glad that they come here, pehaps after reading a bit they will realize their mistake.

I have no doubt that there are many people who died even though they were armed. But there are also many people who are alive today, or saved themselves from being raped, because they were armed and used their weapons successfully.

I agree with you on a few points- Ones brain is ones best weapon/tool for staying alive. Using your wits to avoid or escape trouble is always preferable to getting into a fight. I don't think that you will find any disagreement on those two points from anyone on this forum.

Here is where I believe that we might differ- When I hear someone say "Carrying a weapon is not for me. I don't think that carrying a weapon is a good idea. I choose not to carry a weapon", my reaction is "More power to you. It's your life, it's your choice".

Perhaps I'm wrong but the impression I get from your last post is an attitude that says "My way is right. And anyone who thinks differently is wrong. It's stupid to carry a weapon for self-defense and anyone who does is just a foolish Charles Bronson wanna-be". But maybe my impression is wrong. All I have to go on are the words you posted.

Personally, I have no problem with people who think or choose to act differently than I do. I would never judge, or criticize, or ridicule such people. But that's just me.


Does this mean that you recognize that no matter how careful you are to avoid trouble, that you STILL might need to use a weapon to survive or save your loved ones? If you recognize this, and if YOU are willing to use a weapon to fight for YOUR life, why are you so critical of those people who choose to carry a weapon for that very same reason?

You’re somewhat missing the point of my post. There are many places in N. America where you can go about your daily life, safe from harm from those who would seek to do a person harm. The citizen to felon ratio alone dictates that. It’s just like in the middle east where it’s horrible that anyone has died yet if you look at how many troops circulate through there on a monthly basis you then realize the actual death toll is a VERY minute amount of people. In fact, when I lived in Baltimore, it was actually more dangerous there than it was in Iraq, yet in the desert you HAVE to carry a weapon at all times, where as in Baltimore as a civilian, you can’t.

That being said I am not paranoid enough to let the possible threat of an attack from a street thug make me feel as if I had to arm myself with handcuffs and spray let alone a knife or a pistol for defence. If we took a city such as Baltimore or Detroit which are two of the worst in the US as far as violent crimes are concerned, and we took a consensus of their citizens and asked how many carried some type of defensive item on their person, we would find that the people that do are in such a minority that the criminals outnumbered them. Yet so many are comfortable leaving their houses on a daily basis to go about their lives and yet the crime rate stays at a constant, not raising nor dropping a real significant rate. Meaning carrying or not carrying doesn’t really do anything for the citizens as a whole...

OK, now if we took the number of citizens, not criminals, who are carrying some sort device as a defensive item, and we asked how many of them actually have real training and real world experience in using said device? The ratio would be FAR lower. This adds up to people who are potentially as dangerous as the criminal they are carrying to protect themselves from. (Zimmerman anyone?)

As forum members/posters, we are enthusiasts of course or we wouldn’t be here to congregate and discuss subjects like this or knives, pistols, etc.... However, as in my original post I still stand firm that anyone who walks out their front too with an item on their person to defend themselves, should be an active participant in a program to use said item should the need ever arise. With regards to handcuffs and or pepper spray. If you are properly trained, and have gone through the motions then such a thread with these kind of statements the OP has made, such as “Ambush Tactics” wouldn’t exist. It sound more like romantic visions and theories rather than real world experience. And to that, how many others will jump on the bandwagon and add to it? That creates a mindset in a small group of people that will leave their homes likely ready to do more harm than good, and it’s honestly unintentional.

Look I’m not here to say my way is right. I’m not here to say that everyone that posts a thread like this is wrong. I will however speak my mind as it relates to my real world experience in the hopes to shed some light. I don’t care if you take my suggestions to heart or not, it’s, as you said, your life.

With regards to carrying a knife? Of course I would use it to defend my life, but I’m an enthusiast. I like knives for their form and function as tools and I like to “Talk shop” about materials and all the other nerdy things that come with buying as a hobby. If I didn’t I wouldn’t be a member here and I would just carry a cheap, Wallmart blade for EDC and not care what it was made out of. I don’t always leave my house with a knife in my pocket and unless I’m out in the bush I wouldn’t carry more than one blade on me. If I was encountered with a situation where I needed to defend myself I wouldn’t likely even use my knife. In fact my favourite EDC (Chris Reeve Professional Soldier) is near impossible to get into action fast enough to make a difference so the point is moot. I’d do better throwing it at someone than cutting them with it.

I just wanted to add my .02 in, which didn’t seem to amount to more than some ruffled feathers and for that I am sorry. I grew up in Manhattan, NYC and stayed weekends in the Bronx with my grandmother. I lived in Baltimore and DC for a good portion of my life and have travelled extensively. I have served in the Middle East and other theatres of operations and I was a police officer for a number of years and decided that wasn’t the line of work for me. That’s my experience, and with exception of times I had to be armed in performance of duty, despite living in some less than favorable areas I never felt threatened enough to need a weapon on me. You’re milage may vary in your life. A I said earlier, if I felt that I NEEDED a weapon to leave the house I would move.

[Charlie Mike]

I grew up in and still live in Fresno. I was a meth dealer at one time after Iraq. I'm still paranoid. Hence the ink.