High Kicks Above the Waistline Ineffective

[stdalire]

I know this topic will inflame some martial arts player, but to be honest with you all, high kicks are not effective and prone to be being grabbed in real fight particularly on street fight and you are fighting with an experienced fighter who always look in grabbing your feet.

Last night I played with someone whose style is always after to grab the feet, and his style is very effective. Once it catches your feet, it will truly be broken or you will be outbalanced. His style coincides with my theory that in actual fight, high kicks is ineffective.

Would you agree or not? I appreciate your comments.

[student]

Like everything else, Saint, it depends on the people involved. It does not matter so far as my own capabilities because I can't kick high. But one of the reasons I continue training in Tae Kwon Do is to have the experience of dealing with somneone else's high kicks. And I would say that most high kickers probably don't kick high well enough to make it that effective. (N.B. I include everyone who trains/uses high kicks in this subset, not just the 4th Dans and up....)

There ARE people who can do it; IMHO they are exceptional.


Student

[This message has been edited by student (edited 21 November 1999).]

[This message has been edited by student (edited 21 November 1999).]

[Bob Irons]

One of the rules I have observed in several schools is that you can't catch kicks. I have found 2 reasons for this rule. One is safety, catch a high kick and someone may get dumped on their head. The other is that it makes high kicks look silly and ineffective (a no-no in a Tae Kwon Do school).

The effective high-kicker is the exception, not the norm, where I have studied. This includes the higher belted students and instructors. I remember 2 of my instructors back in the seventies who worked as bouncers at night. In 3 years of study with these 2 gentlemen, I never once saw either one of them use a high kick in sparring (and high kicks were part of the style they taught).

Another cogent point to ponder is that with advancing age, say over 40, your ability to do those high kicks will diminish. Also with advancing age, your injury rate will go up and your recovery time will increase. With that in mind, I have pretty much left high kicks in the "finishing moves" and rarely used categories.

This is one of the long-standing questions in the martial arts which usually gets lots of discussion. The last caveat I will throw out is to use what works for you. If that includes high kicks, then use them.

It is good to know how to deal with those who use high kicks, so studying them and learning them is not wasted time. In fact, I rather enjoyed learning to kick high and still enjoy those high kick demonstrations.

[stdalire]

Martial Arts is really a broad way of self defense.

At my early age in studying martial arts, I thought if I could learn all the techniques of the kind of martial arts that I have studied, it will be enough for me for self defense (I am purely specifying hand to hand combat hereon) but when I met some people with other kinds of Martial Arts, I found out that some of my techniques don't work well as I expected.

I've tried to make the best I can to show of my techniques over the other (during actual exhibition) but not all I know is better than the rest. I have to accept, there are better techniques and more formidable then I know or others know.

So, what I am doing, I am also learning or incorporating those techniques I've seen applicable to my own. It is not bad to accept and learn from others if it is really helpful, its one way of acquiring wisdom.

Like last night as I've said, we exchange blows and we study the weakness of each techniques. To my surprise, I never expect the man has a better way in finishing a fight so early that we don't need to exchange long time of punching, kicking one another to our adversary. And simplifying sophisticated blocks and grabbing.

Of course I value of what I have studied as my foundation and I really practice it, but I do pick up techniques of others that are practical to use also. And just last night I learned two kinds which is enough to finish a hand to hand combat, that even the body and shoulder itself can use as effective weapon to bump someone to out-balance (I am not referring shoulder throw in Judo).

Sometimes, we should look at the weakness also of a high kicks which usually reach the limit of our joints that if blocks or being grab, we can be easily outbalance.

It has been repeated and being observed by any one that in true fight we end to grabbing and trying our best to pin down an opponent, thus do we really need high kicks in a ready position of an opponent. For surprise attacks perhaps helpful.

Just my opinion and accept being bombarded with your analysis to a real fight to rebuttal my opinion.

Thanks student for the ideas you've given.

Addendum: Bob, while I submited my reply, your post pop-up on the screen. Your comments is well presented. I am over 40 yrs old now and I need to devise my kicks into more effective way.

Thanks.



[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited 21 November 1999).]

[Don Rearic]

When I left JuJutsu at 17, after several years...I thought I was somewhat lacking in striking...the striking I learned was effective, I just did not think it was enough...I went to a Tang Soo Do/TKD School, and entered as a nobody. I went for almost 5 months and made some pals...and in so doing, the inevitable happened, we hung out and whatnot...traded ideas and techniques. One of them "squealed" and I was sent front and center to spar with a black belt next class. The Instructor said I "sandbagged" them. Huh Wha?

The guy tried to roundhouse me in the head right out, and I caught it and dumped him right there...tapped his hoodles with my foot when he hit the floor to let him know I could have killed his family line and the Instructor is yelling! "Don't do that!"

Last class...

I have seen TKD folks try that on the street and they broke themselves on concrete and blacktop...I have seen them get wasted in fights by people who did not care about trophies and belts...did not care about rules...

When you train NOT to do things...don't be amazed when you do NOT do them on the street.

I have seen some incredibly effective high kickers, and almost without exception, they have been Hwa Rang Do people...a lot of them can pull that stuff off...I have only seen that in Demos though...no Instructor around here...it is the exceptional kicker that can pull it off on the street, it is not the norm. Most of the head kicks I have seen were after a kick to the hoodles to bring the head low.

[SB]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure this topic was covered somwhere in the past.

I remember one time I was "sparring" this guy full contact. Poor guy, I don't think he knew what he was doing. At one point, he tried to scare me with a jump spin crescent kick. I shot right in and jammed him and his leg against the wall and tripped his supporting leg right into grappling. Oh well.

Needless to say, I think full kicks higher than the chest or even the waist is a bad idea. However, I've heard of a few interestingly good arguments for it. But both require a relatively adept kicker.

First one is to use high kicks as a feint. Most people, by now, are used to the idea of grabbing and tripping a high kicker. I dare say, some might even be lulled into a false sense of security about that. But remember that a good kicker can kick faster than most people can punch. The high kick wouldn't be a fully committed kick, but rather fishing for the opponent's arms to go up while you immediately shift your kicking leg downward, kicking the front hip section of the leg (or whatever else looks open and enticing). A good side kick like that down towards that region can effectively stun a would-be grappler's forward advance, and even impair his mobility.

Second one is more psychological warfare or mob control. I'm not sure how far this can carry, but it's worth academic speculation. First, you stun the opponent with some type of strike or pain compliance first. It could be anything. The one I was exposed to was a double forearm strike to the back of the ear. While stunned, you can give the guy the wildest head kick you can muster, accompanied with a blood-curdling battle scream that would make even Bruce Lee cringe. Hehe. The idea here is, rather than having to fight it out with multiple attackers, you will take away their will to fight, showing off your psychical prowess.

Still, I must say that overall, high kicks are still a bad idea. IMO, the best use of full kicks are to simply shoot it straight across. Full kicks have the advantage distance (assuming that your opponent is unarmed). You can take several hard shots at the opponent and at the same time, keep them at bay. Plus, if you do get grabbed for some reason, it's easier to recover than a higher one. Also, unless you're quite flexible, your won't suffer any speed loss as one typically would trying to kick higher. Kicking higher than the waist also usually results in loss of the distance advantage.

[HJK]

Every technique has its place, including high kicks. It's suicide to use a high kick at the wrong time against certain kinds of opponents because of the potential counters, especially on the "street". But they do have their role. Mid and high attack or counter opportunities do present themselves and if you limit yourself to hand/elbow/arm attacks, you're making a mistake.
An ax kick [and a crescent kick] probably saved my life.
Most of my flexibility is gone now. But that is the least of the deteriorations that age has wrought on my fighting abilities. There are others out there, some of whom I've had the honour to train with, whose abilities are still amazing despite their age. They can kick high or low, although a jumping spinning hook kick wouldn't be their technique of choice in a barromm brawl, I'm sure.
The most effective kickers I've seen trained in Hapkido, Muay Thai or americanised "combat" kickboxing. I wish there was a Hwa Rang Do or Kuk Sool master up here. There ain't. I'm a little old to do acrobatics, which is why the "internal" arts are so attractive to me now.
Any views on the street effectiveness of "internal" styles?

[Cougar Allen]

This is one of the recurrent topics on martial arts forums and it's almost entirely one-sided; almost nobody advocates using high kicks for self-defense, though some people think they're good training as long as you understand it's not a practical technique.

There are several very advanced practitioners on rec.martial-arts.moderated who are tiny women who have used a head kick to defend themselves and done it successfully, though. They argue it's difficult for an 80 pound (36kg) woman to hit a large muscular man hard enough to stop him any other way, and they think a sufficiently skilled practitioner can bring it off against the average dork who's likely to attack a woman (well, at least two of them have proven it can work). They don't advocate the technique for beginners, though.

-Cougar Allen :{)

[PsychRN]

Yeah, I agree that discussions on this subject are one-sided but unfortunately also true. I was a student in TKD but left it for BJJ (Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu) after losing badly in a conflict. Yeah, maybe my ability was is in question but when I would spar with my old TKD buddies (all of whom used to whip my ass)I ended up beating them all without exception (with only 6 months of training in BJJ). It is a hard pill to swallow. And no, I did not challenge the instructor, psychologically I don't think I am ready for that because my pride, my raison d'etre is not on the line. If I did challenge him, that's what would be on his mind. Besides, I like him and respect his philosophy if not his technique. Thanks for listening.

[James Y]

I generally feel that high kicks should not be used in a real self-defense situation. I can do high kicks very easily, and years ago I scored some K.O.'s with spinning back kick to solar plexus, side kick to ribs, or lead roundhouse to temple. But...those were in a certain type of competition.

In my recent years of competition (now retired) I fought in the Chinese-style tournaments...the fighting is more violent and uncontrolled. I stayed away from high kicks and concentrated more on mid and close-range hands, plus leg kicks, foot sweeps, etc. When the fights got tougher it became much more difficult to do anything more than very basic front snap or low roundhouse, competition kick-wise.

In the street situations and the fights I've had in my life (not too many, but enough to have been in a few) I have never yet thrown a single kick. Perhaps it was the suddenness or the stress or the environment. Once even against four men trying to drag me into a car. It just never occurred to me then to kick. The important things that saved me were mobility, body shifts, erratic movements, and/or sudden aggressive hand combinations and dirty tactics.

There is nothing wrong with being able to high kick, in fact it's good physical training. The flexibility, balance, coordination alone are worth it. I've noticed the older people in bad health have lost all their flexibility. I've never seen a flexible old person who was unhealthy (they do exist). Also, once in a match I was T.K.O.'d and got a mild concussion from a very fast, hard high kick.

I've now resigned the high kicks to my physical abilities/training category. Occasionally I'll use them in "play" sparring. The point is, just because you have the ability to high kick does not necessarily mean you will high kick at the wrong situation (unless, of course, that's all you can do). Otherwise, save the high kicks for play, or demonstrations, or the movies.
Jim

[stdalire]

I was a Victim of High Kicks Advertisement.

If there is anyone who is familiar in the Philippines or is there any Filipino in this forum, here is my true story about my martial arts.

When I took my High School in Laoag City (Ilocos Norte) in the 70's, there are many school of karate and kungfu etc. On those years, Bruce Lee films is on top among films shown in all cinema.

Martial arts lovers enrolled in many school of thought. The most beautiful clubs is in YMCA.

I choose to enroll in "an infamous Club or not a well known instructor - His name is Robert Galicia, only a first dan black belt -this man became also a Police Instructor of that City”. The club location is called the river side. A place in Laoag City noted for notoriety on those times. The club is bare open backyard that if you can land a kick on your opponent it will give him a mark to his Katsa uniform, unlike the YMCA having shining wooden flooring and air-conditioned plus body armor during sparring which you cannot feel a true fight.

The Instructor in our Club is only 5'2" in height. His master is Wado & Hapkido. Deadliest strikes he teaches is, "closed fist, open palm strike and a full force double step side-kick. His advise is not to kick high, though it is a nice to practice for muscle stretching. Most street notorious gangsters in the area has respect on him. He advised us not go to on club sparring without him being informed, but we are also visited by other clubs student to spar with mostly kungfu students.

In that club, I reached only Green Belter in 2 yrs time of nightly practice of 2 to 3 hrs. With many Katas and Penant also. The only thing that I like from it till now is the Open palm technique, grabbing, locking and breaking. To the rest of karate blocks, kicks and punches, put any name it is all similar to Taekwondo or any kind of karate.

When I went to Manila for college, I was fascinated with the many karate clubs and many pictures posted on the sidewalks in front of the clubs. I saw one club showing the students pictures which has high kicks so I said I will enroll to this club (the name is “Arku-Taipa” sounds like chinese. On my 1st month, the instructor teaches me only exercises. With my exchange of stories of the assistants instructor, he told me he learned his arts from Ernesto Presas (Brother of Remy Presas), to my disgust, I had enrolled to a club which the instructor he is mentioning is the one whom I am learning my Arnis and Judo. I discontinue on that very the same day. I mentioned to Presas and he is laughing at me. Then I told him, there were good kickers there. He said, those are my former students but I did not teach them to do high kicks.

To mention Filipino High kickers clubs (still existing or maybe no more) are the ff:
1. Yaoyan
2. Arku-Taipa
3. Kuntao

As James Y said, high kicks is good for practice, movie, and tournaments. Nothing wrong in it– but if for street fight better think twice if you gonna use it. Kicking a stationary object and a hanging punching bag that is not moving or reacting is quite different to someone defending himself. I am always talking for real. I’ve been in many actual fights of hand to hand (ramble in college days because of fraternity “Alpha Phi Omega -1925” misunderstanding – Oh! I am not that trouble maker anyway only a part of student life). All I have use is my fist, elbow, knee kicks, grabbing, and stomping kicks when my opponents is already down.
I can do flying kicks too but I haven’t used in actual combat. My favorite flying kicks is to land both feet on a wall with great energy transferred through kicking still when you landed your two feet on the target. My favorite practice in punching and kicking are banana trees in my hometown (I remember my grand ma is too kind to let me destroy some few of the plantation when I am taking vacation in the north).

Just only relating things about high kicks. To defend yourself on high kicks, Punch with your fist the feet of the kicker if he kicks you, if you do this in tournament you’re technically out. But this is good in real fight.

(The ultimate goal to learn martial arts is to defend ourselves or has better leverage than the others, but treat all opponents as good as you are.) Thanks for all your informative and constructive comments on the thread.

[Kalindras]

I think the most gratifying example for keeping your kicks low in all but a very select few circumstances was this:

Several years back, at the Texas Karate Cup Classic('91, I think), I was watching my friend Nate spar against this real stud-muffin (I have forgotten his name, probably as a defense mechanism). This guy seemed to know one technique: the flying side-kick. He started from the very first with this one. The first time, he actually managed to almost tag Nate--I think Nate was just a little dumbfounded that he was trying something so blatantly silly. Well, anyway, after that first time, when Nate sidestepped him, and he got called on a ring-out, you might think that he would've tried something a little more...useful--but, no. Again and again, he kept running, leaping, and taking the tap to the crotch. Nate was working him down by 1/2 points. Finally, I could see that Nate was getting pissed off. So, the next time he comes in with it, Nate reaches up, grabs his leg, and slams him down, HARD on the mat. The only points that boy got in the match were from that foul, I think. So, anyway, he gets up, and--you're not gonna believe this--DOES IT AGAIN! This time, Nate throws up the most beautifully timed high side kick, straight into the guy's jewels, and lets him ride it like a fulcrum, right out of the ring. The match was over, and that poor fellow, if I remember correctly, spent the rest of his day limping to the aid station for more ice.

Some folks just never learn.


------------------
It's the SUSPENSE that kills me! --Bugs Bunny

Kalindras, Carrollton, TX

[Ronald Reagan]

Hasn't anyone here ever used a high kick effectively? There is a time and place for them.

[custos3]

Years ago I was not commited to a position on the practicality of high kicks ( I still am not - there is real power in openess). I heard arguments just like the ones presented here ,pros and cons, and suspended judgement. One day I was in a fight for my life against a machete weilding bull of a guy. To my amazement (after the fight observation of course) I had kicked the guys head and upraised hand no less than four times. My kicks did not knock the opponent out but they stopped him.Thinking back now it is strange how he just stopped. The kicks were delivered in one sequence, at incredible speed as the vicious machete upswing began. Througout my training I had a very playful arrangement with friends that allowed us to attack each other totally unannounced and in unpredictable ways. I have repeatedly tapped them on the jaw with round kicks followed by or preceded by body-shifting that took me to less accessable angles. Alas my kicking is in crisis because of an ACLS injury I suffered in raquetball two summers ago; that one leg is neither good for kicking or support now and I've not been scheduling the surgery I've been told I need. This summer I was home( in Jamaica ) and had the joy of teaching many of my students some of the drills I used to do in my kicking development. One such involves kicking pennys out of the air with side kicks and round kicks. Done proprly the penny should shhoot strait up and away at the angle of the leg when caught with the side kick. The round kick hits the coin with instep. Needless to say this small, moving target requires great eye/leg coordination. One tenet of the art I teach is: Anything Goes.This frees up your thinking and ability. Does anyone remember the feeling- quality of touching a strange dog? As I have gotten older I have learnt that this feeling-quality is present somewhere in most hits - imperceptable/non-threatening. The first achieved by taking a line that is away from perception.The other is achieved by the first but also by broken or erratic timing. I have found that as I continue to master these two that I can hit anything with whatever ( it has made my knife near invisible too).[Don't be angry masters-only few will ever practise]Finally, go with the flow. Practise a principles oriented art and you'll find arguments about techniques ultimately meaningless.

[ppd159]

My back ground is jujitsu (kodokan), the only time I kick to the head is when the persons on all fours.

[joshpowell]

I have one that I don't know if any one has mentioned..

Keep in mind that I am 21 and have been playing with these big kicks for as long as I can remember (took like a year of tkd when I was 8..) I am very flexible, and faster than most.

I don't spin like that fruity tkd stuff, but I do use a couple of 'high' kicks..

One is a front snap kick, unchambered like the kick(makes kick less telegraphed) from Wing Chun Keun Kung Fu. I target it any where up the centerline, the groin, bladder (that's mean), chest or face. I won't fire it off unless my opponent is backing up, and when i do launch it, it comes off of either the front or back leg, and goes back down to the same spot ussuall. Recovery time is about that of a decent left hook, and it take about as much setup.

The other is an inside or out side cresent kick, from contact.

The cresent I know comes down on you from above, kinda like an axe kick only not so linear. This kick is in response to a right punch, you pass thier punch maintaining contact with thier right arm. initate the kick (in this case a inside cresent), you jerk thier right arm down, pulling thier torso slightly down and forward to off balance them, and launch the inside cresent as they come forward. You can drop your heel right on the back of thier head (brain stem is the taget). At worst this is a stunning kick to the shoulder or back..

Might not work for every one, but I have used them effectively, and they ussually end fights very quickly.

josh

[Don Rearic]

Josh! Now you are cooking, you are using other weapons/attacks to make the high kick effective! That is a good thing!

I think the reason high kicking is looked upon with such contempt is we have all (I have anyway) seen dudes try to straight out kick someone in the head..resulting in a quick lesson on why you should not do that. There are exceptions to every rule in life.

You are keying on other things though...a lower kick somewhere else that flows into a NOGGIN BUSTER is a good thing. But that is a different animal altogether.