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Thread: Now Do You See It, Republicans?

  1. #1
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    Now Do You See It, Republicans?


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    In addition to the hidden human costs of our seemingly endless wars are the economic costs. In 2008, Nobel Prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz wrote “The Three Trillion Dollar War: The True Cost of the Iraq Conflict.” Stiglitz illustrates that taking into account the total costs of the war, including replacing military equipment and caring for thousands of wounded veterans for the rest of their lives, the Iraq war will cost us orders of magnitude greater than the 50 billion dollars promised by the White House before the invasion. Add all the costs of Afghanistan into the mix, wrote Stiglitz, and the bill tops $7 trillion.

    Is it any wonder why our infrastructure at home crumbles, healthcare is more expensive and harder to come by, and unemployment together with inflation continue their steady rise? Imagine the productive power of that seven trillion dollars in our private sector. What could it have done were it in private hands; what may have been discovered, what diseases might have been cured, what might have been built, how many productive jobs created?
    http://www.allrightmagazine.com/war-...-of-war-16028/

    Simply stated, the way to balance the budget is to end the wars, close all bases outside the U.S. and bring all the troops home from all over the world.

    No longer shall we suffer to make the world safe for the corporate fat cats!

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    We certainly may have more military bases outside the US than we need, but I'm not sure all are unnecessary. I think it would be better to consider them on a case-by-case basis. The truth of the matter is that our national interests are not limited by our borders. I agree that some of the conflicts we are fighting now were ill conceived and should be stopped as soon as possible, but I'm not sure that all are. I agree that we can improve our current situation ending some of those conflicts. I don't agree that war is good for " absolutely nothing". (insert here soundtrack for "War" by Edwin Starr) There are things worth fighting for. Ending slavery, stopping Hitler, and dismantling (or at least limiting) Al-Qaeda are good examples.
    Last edited by Preacher Man; 05-03-2012 at 05:22 PM.

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    The way to stop Al-Qaeda is to treat the people of the Middle East fairly and with respect. America brought on the war--indeed, most of the people of the Middle East suffered patiently under American oppression for over half a century before responding in self-defense.

    Hitler wasn't going anywhere anyway. Russia and financial ruin were inevitable reasons for his demise.

    If America doesn't pull back from her world-wide military madness and exploitation......she'll suffer the same fate as Hitler and go broke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BG42EDGE View Post
    The way to stop Al-Qaeda is to treat the people of the Middle East fairly and with respect. America brought on the war--indeed, most of the people of the Middle East suffered patiently under American oppression for over half a century before responding in self-defense.
    I agree that treating people in the Middle East fairly and with respect helps, but I strongly disagree that we brought 911 onto ourselves. How did the Middle East suffered under America? The problems in the Middle East are mostly cultural; a culture that resist change and democracy. How they choose to do government id s their problem, but we as a nation have done nothing to force regime change throughout the Middle East. On the Contrary, we helped the Mujahideen fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Great Britain was much more involved in the ME that we ever were. What we have done is take steps to foment and promote human rights in the ME. But American Culture goes everywhere though our movies, literature, and music. More than anything else, it is the cultural influence of America what Muslims extremists resent.

    Hitler wasn't going anywhere anyway. Russia and financial ruin were inevitable reasons for his demise.
    I'm no history expert, but I think most historians would disagree. My dad is a WWII buff, and I've read my fair share on the subject. Hitler basically conquered western Europe. It was just a matter of time for the Nazis to consolidate their power and eliminate the resistance. Without the US, other allies, and the two-front war, Germany and Japan would have prevailed.

    If America doesn't pull back from her world-wide military madness and exploitation......she'll suffer the same fate as Hitler and go broke.
    I agree that excessive militarism leads to financial ruin. Just ask the Soviets and they'll tell you about it. But unlike Hitler, we are not ransacking and pillaging the countries we fight in. Ours are not wars of conquest... or at least they are not supposed to be. I do agree that we need to limit the conflicts we fight and that we do need to abandon some of those conflicts, not just for financial reasons, but because those conflicts were ill conceived from the beginning. There is such a thing as a justified war, but some of the conflicts we are fighting have no justification whatsoever.

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    There is such a thing as a justified war....
    Yes, when another country invades your country.

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    I strongly disagree that we brought 911 onto ourselves. How did the Middle East suffered under America? The problems in the Middle East are mostly cultural; a culture that resist change and democracy.
    Lots to think about here. Google the Shah of Iran......one of several American puppets who brutalized the Iranian people.

    There is NO DOUBT that America brought 911 onto herself--the amazing thing is that she didn't learn a thing from it.

    You do know that most of the world defines American democracy as the freedom to steal natural resources and profit from the pain of the poor.

    Have you looked at the current horrific environmental and socioeconomic conditions in, for example, Nigeria?

    Take a look, you'll probably be amazed.

    "When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land."
    --Desmond Tutu

    Well, Desmond......they got the oil and all the other natural resources, too.......and they left you the mess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BG42EDGE View Post
    Yes, when another country invades your country.
    Or when a nation hides behind terrorists to attack another nation. If they do so, isn't an invasion justified? Invasion without provocation is one thing. Invasion in retaliation for an attack is another. How about to preserve human rights or stop genocide? Aren't those also justifications for war?

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    My dad is a WWII buff....
    My dad is a WWII combat vet.

    America defeated Japan, but Russia defeated Hitler.......lost 20 million killed while killing almost 90 percent of the Germans that were killed by our side.

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    Consensus view of those who know.

    The massive allied invasion of Normandy in June 1944 was not necessary for the military defeat of Germany. The German Army had already been destroyed on the eastern front, and the German war industry was being devastated by the combined bombing offensive. According to Trumbull Higgins,

    When the British were finally compelled by their Allies to invade France in 1944, it was an invasion essentially undertaken in the self-interest of the West, the terrible risk of the collapse of the Soviet Union having long since passed. At this date the Red Army no longer needed more than Western supplies with which to occupy eastern Europe. (4:283)

    The Normandy invasion was simply too late to be of meaningful assistance to the Russians. In fact, Stalin had conceded that is was no longer necessary.

    Furthermore, many capable allied strategists knew that OVERLORD was no longer required and recommended against it. Why were these recommendations not heeded, especially since they would have resulted in greatly reduced British and American casualties? Two considerations cannot be ignored. First was the sheer momentum behind the OVERLORD planning. American planners had placed all their European "eggs" in this basket, they had been advocating OVERLORD against the British for over two years, and they were unwilling to concede to the British position in late 1943. Secondly, American leaders, including Roosevelt, felt that unless American forces took a significant (albeit late) share in defeating the German Army, the Russians would be entirely uncooperative in the post-war world and probably would

    --35--

    not assist in defeating the Japanese. The British were much less concerned about Russian sensitivities, feeling instead that their post-war interests would be better served by strengthening and conserving their armed forces rather than squandering them on the beaches of Normandy.

    OVERLORD was not a military necessity; it was an unnecessary military gamble that could easily have failed. In retrospect, it is impossible to understand why American strategists were so committed to it. This commitment itself is evidence of serious strategic inflexibility. American planners either could not or would not adjust to the realities of the European theater in late 1943 and early 1944. Having already made the investment in a strategic bombing force that, in combination with the Russian Army, could have defeated Germany in a matter of months, why did the US not unleash the bombers and turn its attention to the Pacific theater? Why did US strategists not accept British recommendations for a less risky Mediterranean/Balkan strategy that would have left the western forces in a much more favorable post-war position relative to the Russians? The answers to these questions have political as well as military dimensions. President Roosevelt believed he could buy Stalin's post-war cooperation. When Stalin expressed his final preference for OVERLORD at Tehran, he essentially allowed American political and military strategy to coalesce. OVERLORD was what the Russians still wanted and it was what Gen Marshall had always wanted. Roosevelt could not have been more pleased.
    http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/...tml#conclusion

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    Quote Originally Posted by BG42EDGE View Post
    Lots to think about here. Google the Shah of Iran......one of several American puppets who brutalized the Iranian people.
    I will not defended American foreign policy during the Cold War. A lot of mistakes were done then, but at the same time, it was an ideological competition. Had America done nothing, the Soviet Union would still exist and the world would be worse for it. That is, unless you believe that socialism/communism are political/economic systems than democracy/capitalism. If that is the case, then we can only debate the merits of those respective systems.

    I am critical of certain elements of American Foreign policy and I'm not blind to the attitude of pride and superiority that some Americans display when visiting other countries. That been said, I'm also not blind at all the good America has done. I'm not blind to the sectors of American financial community that operate eschewing ethical standards, but I know that they do not represent the totality of the American financial community. Choosing to see only the bad and ignore or dismiss the good is not only unfair, it a sign of prejudice. Every single country has done good and bad for its people and the world. No country is perfect, just like people are not perfect. But those countries with the most power become bigger targets of criticism and also targets of envy.

    As someone born and raised in Puerto Rico I experienced the negative attitude of some Americans first hand. Then I came to the Continental US for my master's and found out the attitude is not "American" but representative of a minority.

    There is NO DOUBT that America brought 911 onto herself--the amazing thing is that she didn't learn a thing from it.
    Said who? Those who support the one who attacked us? Every criminal says he is the victim of circumstances, that someone else is to blame for his actions. If it is your personal opinion that America is to blame, that is your problem, but Muslim extremists have a history of using violence to further their political ends. That did not start a few days prior to 911. They are called terrorist for a reason. The Middle East is divided in its opinion of America, the extremists do not talk for all Arabs or Muslims.

    You do know that most of the world defines American democracy as the freedom to steal natural resources and profit from the pain of the poor.
    who is this " most of the world"?

    Have you looked at the current horrific environmental and socioeconomic conditions in, for example, Nigeria?

    Take a look, you'll probably be amazed.

    "When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land."
    --Desmond Tutu

    Well, Desmond......they got the oil and all the other natural resources, too.......and they left you the mess.
    But they want the $647.7 million they are getting from us in foreign aid. Do they get it because they are entitled to it? Guess what, they are not. We help and offer aid as a reflection of who we are as a people. There will always be someone in government with an agenda, but that doesn't mean we as a people or as a country have an agenda. It is nothing more than ideologically diatribe and prejudice to convenient to point the problems and ignore the positives. Have you look at the amount in our budget we have allocated for foreign aid to developing nations? Should we eliminate that too to help fix the budget? How about the number of volunteers that every year go on religious and secular aid/mission trips to help build/rebuild/improve infrastructure and other things to nations all over the world? Those don't count as positives?

    We choose how we look at things. Deciding to dismiss one side of the equation is a sign of ideology, not a reflection of things as they truly are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Preacher Man View Post
    Or when a nation hides behind terrorists to attack another nation. If they do so, isn't an invasion justified? Invasion without provocation is one thing. Invasion in retaliation for an attack is another. How about to preserve human rights or stop genocide? Aren't those also justifications for war?
    No.

    First of all, none of those things happened. No "nation" attacked America. People from several Middle East nations attacked America as a private enterprise.

    Second of all, we killed or wounded over two million people--to get--nothing (other than votes for Bush).

    That's perhaps not a genocide, but it's nothing to be proud of.......indeed history will record it as shameful.

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    Muslim extremists have a history of using violence to further their political ends.
    America has a history of using far greater violence to further her economic ends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BG42EDGE View Post
    My dad is a WWII combat vet.

    America defeated Japan, but Russia defeated Hitler.......lost 20 million killed while killing almost 90 percent of the Germans that were killed by our side.
    I do not deny the importance of the Russian front, but the Russians did not liberate Western Europe. I don't propose that America singlehandedly won the war, since that would be completely and absolutely false. I'm saying that the two-front war (three if you count the African front in addition with the Russian and European fronts) stretched the German war machine to its limits and hastened its fall.

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    But they want the $647.7 million they are getting from us in foreign aid.
    That's ludicrous. The people don't get that. The American-friendly puppet government gets it and doles it out to themselves and a few of their friends......just like every case of American exploitation and oppression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Preacher Man View Post
    I do not deny the importance of the Russian front, but the Russians did not liberate Western Europe. I don't propose that America singlehandedly won the war, since that would be completely and absolutely false. I'm saying that the two-front war (three if you count the African front in addition with the Russian and European fronts) stretched the German war machine to its limits and hastened its fall.
    That's simply untrue. The war with Russia destroyed the German capacity to wage war.

    Read the link.

    Overlord was unnecessary and a waste and that's well-known in military circles.

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    Mr. BG, you have said so much in this thread that is divorced from reality that I barely know where to begin. For one, your assertion that closing foreign military bases and ending Obama's wars would balance the budget is preposterous. Less than 25% of the budget goes to defense spending. So even if we got rid of the entire military, which would please many leftists who despise America, we would still be engaged in deficit spending. It is worth noting in this regard that your apparent hero, President Obama, has run up more debt than all of his predecessors combined. And it hasn't resulted from increased military spending. But why muddy the waters with reality?

    Since you only view domestic war as justified, thereby characterizing all American conflict as unjustified, one might inquire why you joined the USAF (perhaps it was unwillingly) and hold out your father's service with apparent pride. I would be proud of him too, but I don't share your view that "Hitler wasn't going anywhere anyway." How one can be so flippant in ignoring the destruction of Europe, the millions of murdered civilians and the unfathomable horror of his regime is beyond me. But this is what hate has become. People denying the Nazi horror right here on Bladeforums.

    And lastly, your contention that smelly, murderous Middle Eastern terrorists were justified in killing thousands of innocent Americans is beyond the pale. It truly leave me speechless. Perhaps rather than telling us how horrible America is for its oppression of the innocent, peaceful Middle Easterners living under 13th century Sharia law, your time might best be used defending the innocent Syrian and Iranian regimes from the foreign dogs from the West.

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    The Middle East is divided in its opinion of America, the extremists do not talk for all Arabs or Muslims.
    Not very divided.

    The only ones who support us are our sycophant puppets and a few of their friends.

    It would be far more accurate to say the people of the Middle East uniformly hate and fear America.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BG42EDGE View Post
    Thank you for the link. I read it more detailedly latter. Do you know of any military study making a different assertion?

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    Mr. BG, you have said so much in this thread that is divorced from reality that I barely know where to begin. For one, your assertion that closing foreign military bases and ending Obama's wars would balance the budget is preposterous.
    I didn't say that.

    So what you're saying is preposterous.

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    And lastly, your contention that smelly, murderous Middle Eastern terrorists were justified in killing thousands of innocent Americans
    I didn't say that either, so you're becoming more preposterous.

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