Triple Quench for O-1....?

[sunny_2_75]

Hello everyone. I find myself constantly trying to research heat treat methods. The otherday I read that with 52100 it is advisable to triple quench....it came with a long explanation that made sense to me. I use 0-1. I dont have a HT oven so I find it hard to soak at a paticular tempature and a particular amount of time. With that said i havnt read anything that suggest you do the same with 0-1. How do I get the best out of my O-1 using my small forge???????

[DEllis]

Really the best answer is switch to 1084. O-1 is great steel but needs a more controlled soak time to get the most out of it. Probably not what you want to hear, but that's the best advice I have for you. If you have your heart set on O-1 then get or make a more controllable forge with a pyrometer.......or a kiln.
Darcy

[sunny_2_75]

thats what all my reading is leading me to....not that I dead set on that steel...just that I ordered a bunch of it as there is alot of mixed info on the net. I will get a h/t oven as soon as possible!!!

[12345678910]

There is one particular fellow that likes heating and quenching 3 times.
Some might call that Hokum.


As far as I can tell- when you heat red hot it undoes the last heat and quench.

I agree with an oven, temperature control will do a world of good.

[bladsmth]

Triple quenching is mainly to refine the grain. It also gives you two practice shots at the final HT .

It is used by some smiths, and shouldn't cause any damage to O-1. However, it won't compensate for improper temperatures or quenchants.

As said, 1084 is about the simplest HT there is. O-1 needs a bit of soak and tighter temperature control. The more carbon or alloys present in the steel, the more the HT needs to be kept tightly controlled.

That said, many makers have made thousands of knives that were perfectly good with nothing but an open forge for HT. It is learning in how to use the tools you have that makes the difference.

Ed Fowler has written extensively on his triple quenching methods. A search on this site will turn up many past threads. Ed also has info in his books and possibly on his website.

[AVigil]

The OP asked this on Knifedogs as well and Ed Caffery gave some insight with a response for those who are interested

http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?...530#post209530

[Ed Fowler]

Give it a try in your shop using your materials and test the performance qualities, compare your results with another blade you like and you will know.

[butcher_block]

whiloe giving it a shot in your shop is great as a new maker i think also it woudl be wise to send one or 2 blades out to known HTers and that way you have at least a base line on the HT to compare things to
after all we all know that a poorly HTed knife might still be better then one that never got a HT (less they blow the grain way up )

[LRB]

Hello everyone. I find myself constantly trying to research heat treat methods. The otherday I read that with 52100 it is advisable to triple quench....it came with a long explanation that made sense to me. I use 0-1. I dont have a HT oven so I find it hard to soak at a paticular tempature and a particular amount of time. With that said i havnt read anything that suggest you do the same with 0-1. How do I get the best out of my O-1 using my small forge???????

Shortly put, you don't get the best out of 01 without an oven. You may get "usable", but not the best, no way, other than possibly using salts. Beware of those who will say different. Do not take my word for it, but do some research. The truth is out there.

[Ed Fowler]

I have used a torch since day one, so did Bill Moran. Never an oven other than temper or other specialized soaks, never salts. A torch and a magnet and the right quenching oil are all you need. The main difference between O-1 and 52100 is one of quality control. Again take no ones advice other than suggestions, try it and see for yourself. Read, take some classes and for anyone who gives you absolute concrete advice, ask them what they make knives for and how they test their blades and you will know who to listen to.

[NickWheeler]

I have used a torch since day one, so did Bill Moran. Never an oven other than temper or other specialized soaks, never salts. A torch and a magnet and the right quenching oil are all you need.

I have zero interest in starting one of those, "let's pile up on Ed Fowler" thread drifts--- But your post has me really curious here. If that's how you feel, then why has your photo and testimonial been in the Paragon kiln ads for as long as I can remember. If you don't think an accurate heat source is needed, why endorse one? Did I miss something???


If you were misquoted, you might want to contact Paragon...


From Paragonweb.com

A message from Ed Fowler, Master Blade Smith, (Member, American Bladesmith Society)
“Paragon offered me no financial rewards or free equipment for this endorsement. I recommend Paragon furnaces only because they make an excellent, reliable product.

“I've made knives off and on since the sixth grade. I enjoy every second in the shop making knives. I used to harden and temper with a torch. As my skills increased, my testing of knives revealed the benefit of longer and more uniform soak times during the annealing and tempering cycles than were possible with a torch.

“I finally bought a Paragon furnace. It is extremely beneficial to bladesmithing, because it allows us to do things with our blades we couldn't do otherwise. If I had known how good they are, I would have bought one years before I did.

“You don't want to introduce any variables into your blades by accident, and temperature is one such variable. With a Paragon, you know exactly what causes what and why. My advice to beginning knifemakers is to use the best equipment you can as soon as you can add it to your shop. I wasted a lot of time and energy trying to make knives with less than the best equipment for the job. Invest in quality equipment, learn how to use it right, and use your time seeking the best knife you can make.

“Without my Paragon oven, I would have never made the discoveries about steel that I’ve made. I love my Paragon. That Paragon sure made a big difference in my knife making. Any experiment I want to run is right there. If I want to change a heat treatment, I know exactly how. With every knife, I learn more.

“Thermal cycles, commonly known as heat treating of blades, are the most significant single aspect contributing to the quality of a knifemaker’s blade. Knifemakers who wish to explore the absolute frontiers of the world of knives in search of the Excalibur of their dreams must have the ability to design thermal treatments specifically intended to push their steel to the highest limits of performance. Absolute control of the temperature of their blades is absolutely essential to success.

“Paragon makes a nice piece of equipment. I recommend it very highly to anyone who asks and to many people who don't ask. In order to make knives that my customers can depend upon, I have to be able to count on my equipment to provide consistent performance. My Paragon heat treating oven has always provided the degree of dependability I can count on to support my commitment to provide my customers the best functional knife possible.

“Believe me, I'm much richer knowing I'm making the best knife I can. I'm much happier with myself.”

[LRB]

Great point Nick !!! I am sure you will get a great answer.

[Ed Fowler]

Good question:

The steel that I use is all from one pour and after much we found it requires a two hour soak at 1555 f (critical temp for this steel) for two hours for each linear inch to the center of the bar before we start forging in order to ensure absolute uniformity in the billets from one to another. The Paragon takes it slowly up to temperature at a rate of 700 f an hour, holds for the required time, then shuts off and the bar cools to room temp in about 10 hours. This step removed unknown variables I was not aware of and drove us nuts for years. Identifying this variable was one of our major accomplishments. I did not discover it, Rex is the man who figured it out, it is a routine thermal cycle they use in the laboratory for some testing.

After forging a blade I temper it at 988 f. for two hours three times in three days, again coming up to temp in one hour, hold for two and cool down slow in the Paragon to room temp.

After the blade has been hardened three times I temper it at 388 f. again up to temp in one hour, hold for 2 hours and cool down slow to room temp., 3 times in three days.

This is what my Paragon is used for, precise temperatures and times when they are needed.

I never use my Paragon for hardening a blade, I want each blade to be hard where I decide it should be and a torch allows me to dictate precisely where the blade is heated to critical temp. and where it will harden, the tang is never hardened, nor is the spine in a single edged blade.

[AVigil]

Thanks Ed,

Very interesting explanation of your technique.

[Joe Calton]

Id say test it! U already have "a bunch of it" forge or grind 4 blades. Do your anealing and normalizing the way u normally do. Quench 2 once each, quench the other 2 twice each. Then do normal draws. Grab some rope or cardboard and a bathroom scale and cut with each blade until you reach a certain measure on the sclae that lets u know its getting dull. While there do the cuts with the same material With a known good blade. I usually test against a benchmade in s30v. Then do destructive tests on each until they fail (except the control blade) then u will know if multiple quenches will give u what u want. If 2 quenches out cut singles do all over again with 2 each at double and triple quenches. The key is YOUR SHOP, YOUR RESuLTS.


Ive heard that u need soak times with 1095 also, but with a double quench, no soak, in MY shop, with my Homemade forge and my tests, ive gotten really good results. Tests very close to my s30v benchmade in cutting tests

[LRB]

If you have to quench 1095 more than once, you did something wrong, and you're begging for micro cracks.

[sunny_2_75]

I havnt replied to this since I inittially posted. I dont want to go without mentioning to all that replied how greatfull I am to all of you regaurdless of your position on this subject. After posting I continued to dig and dig on this. I read a lot of threads here and on knifedogs. All was great! some got pretty heated! With that said....i now understand the importance of trying to understand what is happening in the heat treatment as you reach critical temp. Also understanding the various allows that make the steel perform a certain way....I have much to learn!!!! I think this is a great part of knife making...always trying to get the best out of your blade and never being satisfied. I also learned the importance of testing. Having a blade of a known heat treatment and tempered to a known hardness has to be invaluable for testing and comparing your own heat treats. I will send a blade or two off just for this. These blade forums are AWESOME!!!!! I cant get enough! Thanks again to everybody.