If Only a Neighborhood Watch Captain Had Been Around......

[Hog Feet]

There is no evidence that Martin profiled, followed, chased, confronted and then killed Zimmerman. This is true.

There is hearsay evidence (from Martin's girlfriend) that Martin thought Zimmerman was white and she thought his voice sounded like an old guy (by the prosecutors standards, that certainly sounds like profiling). There is no mention that Zimmerman chased, brandished, verbally threatened, or initiated physical contact. She did say that Martin said that he was being followed. She told investigators that Martin did run towards his father's house and he was no longer running because he was right near the house and he lost the guy (Zimmerman). She says a few minunutes pass and the confrontation happened.
She mentioned to police that Martin verbally confronted Zimmerman when he got close (after he had lost him, was right by his fathers house, a few minutes had passed and he was again out of breath) by asking why why he was following him, and she heard Zimmerman ask him what he was doing around here (or words to that effect). She did not claim to have heard any screams or gunshots, but she did say something about hearing the grass (I assume real grass, not the kind found in Martin's drug screen).

The girlfriend's story could be used as "evidence" that Martin could have turned away from going home to confront Zimmerman.

[Codger_64]

An "earwitness account" is no more hearsay than an eyewitness account. The accounts given by Zimmerman's family and friends and Martin's family and friends might be considered hearsay except as they portray after the event circumstances such as what they were told by Zimmerman or the police. What Dede's account points to is that Martin did not sneak up behind Zimmerman like a ninja and sucker punch him in the nose from behind as some here claim happened. First there was face to face confrontation with verbal exchange. Zimmerman was aware of Martin's presence and did not defuse the situation by identifying himself as a neighborhood watchman, or just walking away. He admitted in court that he did not know whether Martin was armed or not. It is a given that Zimmerman knew that he himself was armed when he got out of his vehicle and began the pursuit, in direct contradiction of neighborhood watch proceedures (both being armed and pursuing).

A part of the initial police report revealed that the entire incident was ultimately avoidable had Zimmerman behaved according to neighborhood watch operating proceedures. He violated those proceedures several ways and it led to tradgedy for himself and his victim and both families.

[Gollnick]

Accidental post

[Codger_64]

The fact that the evidence shows the shot was close contact, combined with Zimmerman's injuries and Martin's knuckles--these things mean the case will be dismissed or there will be a hung jury or Zimmerman will be acquitted.

I've said from day one there was not enough evidence to arrest him after he was initially detained.

Re my bold. This is not a fact in evidence. The autopsy report said it was an intermediate gunshot, not close contact. Also re Martin's "injured knuckels".. one small abrasion sized 1/4" x 1/8" on one finger between the knuckle and second joint on his ring finger was noted in the autopsy report. Hardly evidence of a protracted pummeling.

[Gollnick]

The cops told George to stay back and wait.

No. A 911 operator asked him to do so. But that is an entirely different thing.

Wild theories may abound...

They certainly do in this case.

Nobody can prove (mind you, beyond a reasonable doubt) that Zimmerman did ANYTHING wrong that night.

The prosecutor apparently thinks she can. We'll see how she does.

The evidence is simply NOT there. Imaginative theories don't convict people.

EVERYONE on all sides of this case MUST keep in mind that Mr. Zimmerman is presumed innocent. He does NOT have to prove his innocence... or anything else. The burden of proof is upon the prosecutor. The law under which it must be proven is the applicable Florida law. The standard of proof is the highest standard used in or criminal justice system, beyond a reasonable doubt. And that will have to be accomplished under the watchful eye of a judge and within the rules and standards of a court of law. When a decision is resolution is reached -- whether a jury verdict or a ruling by the judge -- EVERYONE must respect and accept that verdict regardless of what it is. These principles --the presumption of innocence, the burden of proof, the standard of proof, the rule of law, and the respect for a verdict/decision -- these are pilars of our justice system, of our nation, and of Western civilization since ancient times. If you would want these things for yourself or for a friend or loved-one accused of a crime, then you must grant them to Mr. Zimmerman in this case.

I've said from day one there was not enough evidence to arrest him after he was initially detained.

Hmmm... if a loved-one of yours was found shot dead, would you want the man found standing over him holding a smoking gun and admitting to the killing arrested and the situation handled as a crime scene? Or would you be content with the patrolman on the scene deciding to believe the shooter's claim of self-defense and his decision to just mop up this mess and we can all go home? Not only the family and friends of the deceased, but the community as a whole have a reasonable expectation that the killer will be arrested, there will be a proper investigation, and a careful and studied decision will be made by at least a DA -- if not a grand jury -- only after all of facts are known. The arrest and the investigation do not mean guilt, they simply mean that proper and respectful procedure is being followed.

[Gollnick]

On a side note, what ever side of the conflict you come down on, I would be furious at the rent a cop police who "investigated" this event. Poor, Poor job.

From what I have seen reported in the popular media, the crime scene investigation was amateurish at best and downright shoddy... very embarrassing for the police department in question and very limiting for the prosecution. Juries these days expect forensic evidence and they look to it ahead of testimony, especially when testimony is contradictory.

My GUESS is that if the prosecutor decides to try and use any of it, a good deal of Mr. Zimmerman's defense will be spent will expert witnesses demolishing the forensic evidence.

Prosecutors these days bemoan the so-called "CSI Effect." Television shows now feature forensic technology -- much of it fictional, but persons uneducated in these matters can't make that separation -- and seemingly unsolvable crimes are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by lab tests. So, we all now expect that sort of thing in real life. It's a problem and a challenge for prosecutors and police. And it will be a huge stumbling block in this case.

Some time ago, I had to review a manual published by the Oregon state crime lab; it's sort of a catalog of their services published for law enforcement officers. I was struck by how many times it said something like, "Contrary to what has been recently depicted on television, the lab cannot..." Even police officers suffer from "The CSI Effect" and have to be set straight on what cannot be done. If police officers who are professionals at this stuff and work with it everyday are succeptible, how much more the general public... the general public from whence juries are drawn?

[eyeeatingfish]

Being shot and killed for punching a guy in the nose is pretty aggressive, IMHO. Say, how is Officer Deedy coming along? No news lately about his shooting the guy there in Haiwaii. Did they drop the charges?
.

If someone punches you a few times and you punch back then sure it is self defense, but if someone punches you and you punch back, knock him over, and instead of retreating you decide climb on top of them and commence hitting them some more you have gone beyond self defense in most cases. Now you are taking revenge, becomming aggressive.


You beat me to the news update for Deedy. Filing the motion to dismiss didn't seem like any big development to the case though. I think that this case will probably go like the Martin case and either get dumped or have the jury find them innocent. Zimmerman has a stronger case though I think.

[eyeeatingfish]

From what I have seen reported in the popular media, the crime scene investigation was amateurish at best and downright shoddy... very embarrassing for the police department in question and very limiting for the prosecution. Juries these days expect forensic evidence and they look to it ahead of testimony, especially when testimony is contradictory.

My GUESS is that if the prosecutor decides to try and use any of it, a good deal of Mr. Zimmerman's defense will be spent will expert witnesses demolishing the forensic evidence.

I have heard claims that the police did a bad investigation but I have never actually seen any substance to the claim. As I heard on the radio the police recomended a manslaughter charge and the prosecutors declined it initially. So I don't know what evidence was or was not collected at the scene but I am skeptical of the claims that the crime scene investigation was anything below average.
I can't think of a whole lot there is to do immediately anyway.
A diagram, lots of photos of suspect, victim, and scene.
Recover the firearm. Check hands of suspect for GSR
Witness statements/ any surveillance cameras.

Forensics could be taken days later from Martin's body, to check for things like GSR, powder burn, injury, etc.


Ocassionally I do have to explain to someone what can and cannot be done in terms of "CSI" type of forensics but it is usually not a big issue, more just a conversation rather than an expectation that creates some problems.

[BG42EDGE]

There is no evidence that Martin profiled, followed, chased, confronted and then killed Zimmerman. This is true.

Exactly. That's all conjecture except for the homicide, which the available evidence suggests will be justifiable.

And that's how I always thought it would turn out......even when the media concentrated on lynching Zimmerman.

Media did an even worse job than usual of bungling this story.

[BG42EDGE]

With the evidence that has been released so far, I predict an acquittal for Zimmerman, and a career damaging if not ending case for the "Special Prosecutor" who filed the case under political pressure.

I don't know the laws down there, but in some jurisdictions, if you have a legal defense (AKA self defense) and your attorney makes the motion at the beginning of the trial, you can ask for costs, including all legal defense costs. Can you imagine tax payers rage if this guy's attorney asks for this (which I would do if representing him), and getting all costs and fees paid by the prosecutors office budged. In a high profile "murder" case, with a "reasonable" attorney the costs would easily be 100k plus, without breaking a sweat!

I saw Mark O'Mara asked that question a while back and his estimate was actually five to ten times that.

Zimmerman is lucky to have him, though......I think he's been great so far.

[Gollnick]

The defense is going to cost upwards of a million dollars.

They will need experts to debunk the forensics including acustic experts to address the audio recordings. They will need forensic evidence of their own. They will have to redo every test at their own cost. Jury consultant. Wardroob consultant. Mock trials. Several man-years of attorney time plus man-years of paralegal time, man-years of private investigators time, man-years of clerk/clerical time. Photocopying alone will run upwards of $30,000 I'll bet.

And that is to say nothing of the cost of Mr. Zimmerman's keeping at the undisclosed secure location plus the costs of transporting him to and from court appearances.

He needs a suit and a good haircut to appear in court. But he cannot go to the mall and get fitted at Nodrstrom's, stop at Great Clips, and maybe get a burger in the food court. No. The tailor and the hairdresser have to come to him. They will charge accordingly and just the logistics of getting them to him will cost even more.

And, of course, Mr. Zimmerman can't work.

This next year is going to cost upwards of a million dollars.

The tax-payers will also put a fraction of a million into the prosecution. The court costs will also be huge... especially when added security is required.

Had this thing not been drive to thermonuclear in media, criminal defense in such an arguably-weak might cost 100K$ and the prosecution might spend 50K$... at most. The media circus has escalated the cost by ten-fold.

And all of this effort and cost and suffering is just Kabuki to satisfy a handful of activists.

[BG42EDGE]

I have heard claims that the police did a bad investigation but I have never actually seen any substance to the claim. As I heard on the radio the police recomended a manslaughter charge and the prosecutors declined it initially. So I don't know what evidence was or was not collected at the scene but I am skeptical of the claims that the crime scene investigation was anything below average.
I can't think of a whole lot there is to do immediately anyway.
A diagram, lots of photos of suspect, victim, and scene.
Recover the firearm. Check hands of suspect for GSR
Witness statements/ any surveillance cameras.

Forensics could be taken days later from Martin's body, to check for things like GSR, powder burn, injury, etc.

I'd have to give that a hearty second.

The media (again) started this story going that the police did a poor investigation.......yet we have slowly seen key pictures and facts come out that demonstrate that the info from the scene was gathered up just fine.

The cops did ok and even recommended a Manslaughter charge but were overruled by a prosecutor who decided they'd never get a conviction so it would be a waste of the State's money.

He was right, but then the story took on a life of its own.

The media have a lot of responsibility for making this the horrible mess that it turned out to be.......they got the activists in a tizzy and it snowballed from there.

[JSMcustoms]

Okay, first off... lets get back to the original topic of this thread, which was the video that showed a U.S. soldier getting assaulted by a group of thugs. This is a horrible thing to do to anyone. It makes it even worse that it was done to a member of our armed forces. The lack of respect for our military personal today is quite frankly nothing short of appalling.



Now on to the Zimmerman case. Who's to say what really happened that night? The only eye witness other than Mr. Zimmerman is DEAD. To me, this makes a fair trial almost impossible. For the most part, I see two possible outcomes with this case. The fist and most likely one to me is that it gets thrown out, seeing as that the evidence collection etc was poorly handled by the police. Or two, the jury rules in favor of Mr. Zimmerman and it becomes self defense (which I think it should be ruled this way). If you think someone is trying to kill you, by all means you should be able to defend yourself in any way that you view necessary in the situation.

[Codger_64]

... You beat me to the news update for Deedy. Filing the motion to dismiss didn't seem like any big development to the case though. I think that this case will probably go like the Martin case and either get dumped or have the jury find them innocent. Zimmerman has a stronger case though I think.

Deedy did the deed in front of witnesses and evidently also on security camera. But then again, he is one of the King's men. Zimmerman states his motivation in his 911 call. In that call, Martin was one of "these a-holes always get away" and a "f'ing punk". IIRC, Zimmerman bought pistols for himself and his wife on the recommendation of an animal control officer. His wife and himself had previously been confronted by a free running pitt bull and the officer recomended the guns over pepper spray. He also bought a rotweiller at that time and neighbors recount seeing him patrolling the neighborhood with the rotweiller. They evidently were unaware that he was also carrying a gun until after the homicide. Zimmerman knew that he was armed when he left his vehicle and pursued Martin. Had he not been, perhaps he would have followed neighborhood watch protocall and the situation would have ended quite differently. No matter how much a person wants Zimmerman to be their hero for killing Martin, they would have to admit that Zimmerman would not have been emboldened to chase and confront Martin had he been unarmed. His actions were not that of neighborhood watchman, but rather armed vigilante.

[eyeeatingfish]

I'd have to give that a hearty second.

The media (again) started this story going that the police did a poor investigation.......yet we have slowly seen key pictures and facts come out that demonstrate that the info from the scene was gathered up just fine.

The cops did ok and even recommended a Manslaughter charge but were overruled by a prosecutor who decided they'd never get a conviction so it would be a waste of the State's money.

He was right, but then the story took on a life of its own.

The media have a lot of responsibility for making this the horrible mess that it turned out to be.......they got the activists in a tizzy and it snowballed from there.

I did find an article that mentioned a few things wrong with the investigation. Most of them were not big mistakes and some of them were beyond the control of the police department such as rain washing away blood evidence. Probably the worst was not recovering Zimmerman's vehicle as evidence.

But nothing in the article suggest real poor police work or any major problems in the case.


http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/n...l?id=151853005

[Hog Feet]

perhaps he would have followed neighborhood watch protocall and the situation would have ended quite differently.

What do you think is going to be more important IF this goes to trial; neighborhood watch protocol, or the laws of the state of Florida?

If this were a hearing in front of the homeowners' association, he would be in BIG trouble (they might go so far as to tell him not to do that again).

Following someone with a concealed handgun is not illegal in Florida. Walking up to someone is not illegal. Pummeling someone in the face and smashing their head on the ground because they followed you and asked you 'what you are doing around here' is illegal. Shooting someone who is trying to kill you or cause serious bodily harm is legal in Florida. Any questions?

[Codger_64]

Again with the pummeling and smashing. One tiny 1/4" x 1/8" abrasion on one finger. Zimmerman's actions culminated in his committing a homicide. That is beyond refute. He admits it. The police reports confirm it. The autopsy and other forensics confirm it. His motives? again, look at his statements and actions on the 911 tape. Look at his record of brushes with the law over anger management issues. I suppose my opinion is pretty well set in the matter, as is yours and a lot of other people's. I've not seen any evidence that refutes my opinion and in fact have seen more that confirms it.

[Gollnick]

Soon enough, a jury under the guidance orr a judge will look at those things. Until then, what I or you or anyone else thinks is just so much more noise.

[Hog Feet]

Again with the pummeling and smashing.

Yes, 'again with the pummeling and smashing'. It will be used to JUSTIFY the homicide that Zimmerman admitted to, the forensic evidence seems to support and at least one eye witness seems to have confirmed. Zimmerman's motive? He didn't want to be killed.

"homicide" is not against the law? Seriously, I'm not trying to be condescending, some people do not know. He could have been a KKK member in a white hoodie who followed M and called the police telling them all kinds of racist stuff...sure it wouldn't look good and a jury might convict based on emotion, but how can it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that what Z did was ILLEGAL?

[Codger_64]

Martin protecting himself from an armed adult assalant was not a crime. He retreated to defuse the situation. The armed adult continued pursuit and initiated a confrontation. Martin's efforts at warding off his attacker were in vain and his attacker shot and killed him. Martin was standing his ground and under Florida law that is not a crime. Certainly not one that supports summary execution.