So they say you should be trained... What training?

[KennyB]

Okay so I hear it a lot, and I'm not trying to be inflammatory... But the idea that you should only rely on a knife for self-defense if you have training to do so is pretty widely held.

So what kind of training are people talking about? If it was actually in a person's interest to get such training how would they go about it? I am familiar with a weapons training class at my local karate dojo, but I believe you must already be a black belt to take that class.

Anyway, I've just never seen this kind of training actually talked about much. Curious

[Black Knife]

Get training specifically in the offensive and defensive use of blade. Karate schools and kung fu schools will not offer real good training. Also find a school or system that also covers the empty hand defense against a blade.

Most Filipino martial arts teach this but make sure they include sparring since most schools don't do it. I have trained in various FMA's but to me they lacked realism by teaching traditional techniques that have no bearing in the modern world and they never pushed sparring. I currently train in Libre Fighting and I find this system perfect for street defense with a blade without politics and traditions.

[Blackfeather]

Get training specifically in the offensive and defensive use of blade. Karate schools and kung fu schools will not offer real good training.

I currently train in Libre Fighting and I find this system perfect for street defense with a blade without politics and traditions.

I've trained with you, and while I agree most Karate and Kung Fu schools don't go in depth with the knife, one must look at those who do and where it comes from. It's not always so bad. In our Kung Fu school we've been working on breaking down the little knife work we have and it's going well. Sadly we are limited to our forms and whatever applications can be brought out.

I will have to second the Libre System. What little I learned I was impressed with. I like the way it's done, and honestly I wish to eventually train further.

All in all I think some styles have their benefits, the focus on certain aspects that others don't. I enjoy the Sayoc Kali for their targeting and extensive drills, but I like some of the Lameco work for their disarms. Disarms are extremely difficult under stress, but can be done. Most defense is with the idea that you see the blade coming, but even if you've been cut/stabbed you want to know how not to let it happen again. Any style that doesn't offer all three sides just won't cut it. Blade defense against a weapon, empty hand defense against a weapon, and applying offensive techniques to defend yourself in all situations...

[Colinz]

I would also emphasize that using a knife in self defense is not really an isolated skill. I get that feeling sometimes when people talk or post about knives and self defense. The best way is to learn (at least parts of) a system which doesn´t rely on techniques but more on principles, like FMA usually does. Transitions between weapons should be in the curriculum. If it isn´t or if there is secrecy on how some techniques work in the system, until you reach a certain level (or because you do not belong to a certain group of people like police or military), then I would say move on to another school.

Don´t be afraid to check out some other modern alternatives like SYSTEMA, Suarez International etc. I know, calling FMA "traditional" is really not correct. There are schools that still evolve and people that start new schools with a thorough knowledge from a "old" one (I believe Sayoc is a fine example of this - only what I have heard, no personal experience).

When you have a base built on principles you can forage in different techniques. There is a lot of good info out there. And some really bad too. Having a good foundation to build on will give you the tools to see what will work and what will not. It also will help you to avoid "tool-fixation" where you replace skill with some new cool gadget... or knife.

/C.

[djjonny]

problem I found with Traditional MA's they tend to be too rigid in their thinking and when training defense against a knife alway attack a set way.

Watching all the fancy demonstrations defending against knives with a pair of ninchucks etc (with all the oo's and ah's from the audience) not one of them showed how the street thugs acually fight or attack locally where I stay

As you all know there are so many ways a knife attack can come
(use to train so not biased against it)

[Black Knife]

Hey Blackfeather....when ever you are town brother....we will be starting training on Sunday mornings real soon!

[HeavyHanded]

The Kali I took was about 25% stick, 25% knife, and 50% empty hands - empty hand vs knife and vs same comprised most of it. The small amount of Escrima involved mostly knife use/sparring, most of the stick was for body mechanics and hand/eye. The Silat was almost entirely empty hands, so even vs a knife, not applicable directly to offensive application. In my experience the FMA was the best among "mainstream" MA that might be available in an average metro area. At the very least, you will learn redirections, footwork, and mechanics that can be readily adapted to knife even if your specific teacher doesn't emphasize its use as such. That said, any tradition that includes a healthy dose of trapping skills can be used as a bridge to apply "bio mech" or defanging technique. I had a friend who trained only traditional MA with massive amounts of sparring thrown in - he simply held the knife and executed empty hand technique that suited its use. He's quite effective.

[Gollnick]

I am familiar with a weapons training class at my local karate dojo, but I believe you must already be a black belt to take that class.

The problem with this is that it instills a fear of knives. It says that knives are this very advanced, black-belt-level thing that are just too dangerous and/or complex for all but the most-highly-trained.

If you go to a school that teaches FMA, you can expect to begin knife training within a few weeks because knives are integrated into the entire curriculum so that the student quickly becomes familiar with and has a certain "comfort with" knives from his first days. You can also expect sticks within your first few classes. Staff is come pretty quickly too. What FMA seems to put off is flexible weapons.

It's as if someone decided that math is a spooky and complex subject and so it should only be taught at the graduate level. No. Yes, non-linear calculus is kind of spooky and generally is only offered at high levels. But we start counting in pre-school and start on simple arithmetic in kindergarten and integrate math into the entire curriculum.

I suspect that, in some cases, when an instructor only offers knives -- or other weapons -- to high-level students, that the reason is that he himself is not comfortable with them.

[CWL]

I am familiar with a weapons training class at my local karate dojo, but I believe you must already be a black belt to take that class.

Anyway, I've just never seen this kind of training actually talked about much. Curious

When I was studying WuShu in China, thinking myself a badass, I asked my Sifu why we were spending so much time on empty hand techniques when I had originally approached him to study blade techniques.

His answer was something like "What would you do if you dropped your sword?" - I never asked him to rush things again.

If you want to go traditional, you have to follow the program. If you want to go straight to knives & sticks, there are classes focusing only on those. You may have to travel a little distance, but many of these classes are structured as weekend courses.

[will_1400]

problem I found with Traditional MA's they tend to be too rigid in their thinking and when training defense against a knife alway attack a set way.

Watching all the fancy demonstrations defending against knives with a pair of ninchucks etc (with all the oo's and ah's from the audience) not one of them showed how the street thugs acually fight or attack locally where I stay

As you all know there are so many ways a knife attack can come
(use to train so not biased against it)

Bullshit like that (the stupid demo) is why I say I'm a "classical" martial artist (studying karate for going on 9 years now). I did learn the forms, weapons, etc, but was also taught to look at body mechanics and to stay fluid in my thinking. I guess my school is one of the exceptions, but the whole "rigid in their thinking" can apply to a lot of the MMA gyms I visited in the past. Often they'd tell me that "karate is useless". My response: "tell that to Machida or GSP".

Getting back on track... I don't care what style I learn or where it comes from as long as it's effective.

[will_1400]

I am familiar with a weapons training class at my local karate dojo, but I believe you must already be a black belt to take that class.

Anyway, I've just never seen this kind of training actually talked about much. Curious

That policy is a crock of shit. I'm a karate-ka and weapons training was integral to my training. As soon as I could do my empty-handed basics somewhat competently, my sensei grabbed a bo and told me "now you learn this".

[KennyB]

That policy is a crock of shit. I'm a karate-ka and weapons training was integral to my training. As soon as I could do my empty-handed basics somewhat competently, my sensei grabbed a bo and told me "now you learn this".

Yeah, I do remember that we worked with sais and nun-chucks early on, but any training with edge weapons was reserved for a special class.

I never really liked karate too much though. I felt like I needed something a little bit more immediate in terms of giving me abilities to defend myself, so I picked up boxing--never really got into the sport of it, but I can throw and evade punches pretty well.

Checked out the libre system, closest class is in Idaho.

I like the idea of a weekend class, and then continuing training on spare time. Bet that would keep the monthly cost thing down... One other thing about karate I didn't like. However the cost of travel and it only being a one-time class might not be a good thing.

There are a number of "traditional" martial arts schools in my area, including kenpo, aikido, jiu jitsu and judo--as well as several other karate dojos. There's also tae kwon and muay thai but I don't think I have the physicality for those. There doesn't seem to be anything like escrima or kali around though.

[not-too-sharp]

It seems like Libre is pretty popular, but honestly I haven't heard of it outside of the forum.
My unit has the luck to have a lot of extra funding for schools and seminars so we have a few guys that periodically go to instructor level courses and bring back what they learn to teach to the rest of the guys. At first we did MAC (modern army combatives) Level 3 drills and training which had some stick and knife work but mostly focused (in our unit) on unarmed self defense and flowing from strikes to grappling and making the transition as close to seamless as possible which was alright but we all wanted more knifework and in response they sent a couple NCO's to like 3 separate seminars and one that all of them remembered and seemed to learn the most from was a live training clinic with a guy named Mike Janich (SP?) Lots of bio mechanics and attacking nerves,muscles,tendons,etc all with the intention of disarming, disabling (maiming really),and eventually just taking the other guy out. It included a sort of force multiplier as far as different techniques you could use in different situations. I learned a lot and enjoyed it immensely. So it might be something to check out. One of the Sergeants who gets a lot ofcombatives schools and different weapons training also recommended Israeli systems like Krav Maga and Haganah. Theyre supposed to have a tonaof sparring and high intensity stress drills so I'm excited to try that out. But like everyone else is saying it's about knowing exactly what YOU want to learn and looking for somewhere that will accommodate your learning needs and work with you on your goals. Personally I'd also advise you to look for somewhere with full contact sparring (in a safe and responsible environment) because even if it's not your specific style you wanted it will still let you get your hands dirty and let you see what your in for when someone is determined to kick your teeth in and not just be a human practice dummy that just sits there with no resistance when your trying your techniques. Hope this helped -Andrew

[michaelm466]

I've done defense against knife in both Aikido and Karate. I think how good your training is really depends on not just the martial art, but the teacher/school. Aikido is mostly joint locks and some throws (trap the knife hand/wrist and throw the opponent while holding/controlling hand/arm that has the knife still, usually to break the hand), in Aikido it was mostly about not just disarming the knife, but breaking the knife wielding hand quickly so that they can't pick up the knife again. We would do our set defenses learn several and then spar and the opponent was allowed to attack however they wanted and we had to apply the techniques we learned to the not so perfect straight on attack at full speed. IMO, defending against a knife is 90% speed, reflexes and movement, because the most difficult part will be getting control of an attacker that is wildly/quickly swinging and stabbing a knife at you, the rest is being able to a technique that you've done so many thousands of times at so many angles/speeds that you automatically do it once you have the knife in control. But like I said before definitely check out schools/teachers before you join one and see how they actually teach/train, even within the exact same martial art, one aikido teacher might only do static, slow motion knife attack defense and then move on to something else, others might continually increase the speed and let the opponent attack from different angles, areas, or do what ever they want and teach you to apply what you've learned to new attacks.

[SeaxyBeast]

Thoughts about what's been said so far, just trying to put it together in a useful format...

The two things that most people seem to be pointing to here are the best principles and practices that particular approaches use and the need to develop those principles in continued application with a variety of other people. You need both for training to be most effective. If you can get that at a martial arts school or community program then that's usually the best that most people can do. If you are lucky you have access to both at a high level. Most people aren't that lucky.

Filipino martial arts keep getting mentioned because there's a lot of cultural emphasis on shorter blades. Same goes for Indonesian/Malayan arts. These systems tend to incorporate blades very early on because knives were commonly carried and used in conflicts and so all practices developed with the transition between hand and blade as seamless as possible. Outside of these arts I've seen an emphasis on small blades in Krav Maga and Ninjutsu and Systema. Most of the more traditional martial arts focus less on short blades and so it falls to the individual instructor as to how well they are integrated into the instruction.

If a school does not teach knives until later in the curriculum it's usually either because they don't play a big part in the art and so do not have a lot of integration (and perhaps not as evolved a set of best practices) or because they refuse to teach a lethal skill to a beginner of questionable character.

If you don't have the option of a school that teaches good blade fundamentals in the area you will probably need to go the seminar route. Many people here have recommended MBC/Michael Janich seminars, Inverted Edge Tactics and Amok! (any others?) as good, productive workshops at which to learn principles and practices to work on in private practice. Many people have developed good skills this way but it is important that you work on these skills consistently with as wide a group of training partners as you can manage and that you continue going to seminars in order to get the feedback you need to correct bad habits and misunderstandings.

[rc75mhz]

I just ordered a dvd/training knife from Martial Blade Concepts. I have not received it yet so I have no review to offer. While I am sure that hands on instruction and practice are the best, this dvd may be the next best thing. Anything is better than no training at all.

[will_1400]

Yeah, I do remember that we worked with sais and nun-chucks early on, but any training with edge weapons was reserved for a special class.

I never really liked karate too much though. I felt like I needed something a little bit more immediate in terms of giving me abilities to defend myself, so I picked up boxing--never really got into the sport of it, but I can throw and evade punches pretty well.

Checked out the libre system, closest class is in Idaho.

I like the idea of a weekend class, and then continuing training on spare time. Bet that would keep the monthly cost thing down... One other thing about karate I didn't like. However the cost of travel and it only being a one-time class might not be a good thing.

There are a number of "traditional" martial arts schools in my area, including kenpo, aikido, jiu jitsu and judo--as well as several other karate dojos. There's also tae kwon and muay thai but I don't think I have the physicality for those. There doesn't seem to be anything like escrima or kali around though.

I agree that if you need to learn to fight right the hell now, then karate, kenpo, wing chun, etc aren't your best bets and you'd be best served with muay thai or boxing. The more classical arts, if taught correctly, might take longer to be proficient with, but many of them can be practiced into your senior years (65+). Not sure I can say that about some of the other styles, but I could be wrong. As for the monthly costs, that's something virtually every school has to do to keep the lights on, at the very least. Right now I'm actually working out at an MMA gym that does BJJ and Muay Thai (broadening my horizons/getting new perspectives) and I have to pay monthly dues, just like everyone else.

Not trying to sound disrespectful or rude, but it seems you're having a hard time commiting to one thing or another and are looking for a quick fix of sorts. The three secrets to being good at any fighting art, no matter the style, are: "train hard, train often, train correctly". The best recommendation I can give you is to visit the schools around where you live, get a feel for the instruction, find one that you agree with, and then stick with it for a couple years.

[jayinhk]

The importance of sparring when you and your partner are really trying to 'kill' each other cannot be emphasized enough. I train with an FMA group (Kalis Ilustrimo, although I prefer to call it eskrima) and we really go all out with the sticks and armor every session, but unfortunately in the interests of safety, hitting below the belt and thrusting aren't allowed.

[will_1400]

The importance of sparring when you and your partner are really trying to 'kill' each other cannot be emphasized enough. I train with an FMA group (Kalis Ilustrimo, although I prefer to call it eskrima) and we really go all out with the sticks and armor every session, but unfortunately in the interests of safety, hitting below the belt and thrusting aren't allowed.

That's the main drawback of sparring: you have to make it artificial to do it for an extended period of time.

[jayinhk]

That's the main drawback of sparring: you have to make it artificial to do it for an extended period of time.

True, but it's much better to do it with a degree of 'artificiality' than not do it at all!