Ideas for Practical Stick Fighting?

[djjonny]

here is the Eskrimadors documentary for some background

[djjonny]

[hank_rearden]

Black Knife
Has anybody seen the so-called death matches of stickfighting. They were not really death matches but the fights took place without safety equipment.

not "vale tudo" wherein you're really out to kill or main each other but it's close. a semi-friendly match with no protective gear, a single rattan stick each, and both fighters allowed to step on only four smooth cococnut shells sunk to the ground, aranged in a 1x1 meter square. blows are somewhat pulled, like in point-karate, but hits are real and painful.

[Black Knife]

When I trained with Grandmaster Ising Atillo he told me that Balantiwak style would go good with my Jiu-Jitsu and he was right. I like the Balantiwak blocking system and the use of just one stick compared to other FMA styles I trained in that made us learn with 2 sticks. I use the blocks of Balantiwak system to get close and go for stick grappling.

[Black Knife]

The sport aspect of Escrima will ruin the true art just like it has to other arts.

[gwhysow]

That's the thing, 'practical' has all kinds of meaning to different people. For some, a diagonal downstroke is 'practical', for others, a snake-and-strip (from Kali) may be just the ticket. From what I'm reading, you want no-nonsense, and simple. Simple doesn't mean 'watered down', it just means a minimal effort is needed to get the desired result.

As usual Edwood was on the mark with suggesting Dog Brothers. Though they come from a variety of backgrounds (most from Kali), they've put a major focus on power, and simplicity. They preach the "this is a stick...the most primal of weapons. Hit hard", and they do exactly that, with great tact. Crafty Dog has taken the practical aspects of the system, and has broken down how a technique will really stand up. Watch a Dog Brothers Gathering vid on Youtube and you will really get an idea of what they're about. Respect and skill. I see their system as an extension of what has been learned.

Another practical route - and one I've become a huge fan of - are the Irish Stick Fighting disciplines. Sifu Glen Doyle in Canada (and to be hosted at Emerson in Oct), has an outstanding family system, steeped in tradition. There is nothing PC about the techniques, and can be well adapted to any sticked weapon. The system focuses on a two-handed structure, built to break bones and end fights. There are no traps, and deflections always have hard follow up strikes.

At the end of the day, you need to find what suits you. Either way, I would suggest taking a peak at those two. Very strong options.

[hank_rearden]

who's saying stick fighters will prefer hardwood sticks to rattan in a fight? i think the rattan is nature's gift to the weak-handed. it's better than any artificial material i know for making impact weapons. the very light weight, flexibility and surface hardness are next to perfect. a rattan stick might hit you twice before you can deliver one with a bahi or camagong (if you're slow.)

[SeaxyBeast]

The Filipino veterans I've talked to who served in WWII chose bahi flatsticks as their backup weapon if their bolos broke and they couldn't get a replacement. A big part of that, though, was that the bahi could be shaped to an oval profile to make it better at breaking bones. I agree that rattan is a great wood for practice and a perfectly adequate stick for self defense but bahi can be made into a much more deadly weapon.

[numberthree]

Balintawak.... check out GM Nene Gabucayan. very direct and practical.

[jayinhk]

I EDC a rattan stick and a bahi one side by side, funnily enough: I've been training with them frequently. Bahi is much heavier and harder and can absolutely break bone, but is slower. Rattan is of course much, much faster, but it can still do a lot of damage. I took a hit to the forehead a few weeks ago and I got a heck of a lump. Good thing I was wearing eye protection: the other guy simply lacks control. Unfortunately he's the only other southpaw in the group and the only one around my size, so I'm stuck with him.

[untamed]

Re: rattan sticks

For purposes of convenience, cost-effectiveness and margins of safety in training, rattan is used.

My great grandfather's flatstick ("balila" in the archaic language by the old folks in Central Luzon province) was from "bahi" or palm hardwood. It was the "special occasions" stick.

[parbajtor]

who's saying stick fighters will prefer hardwood sticks to rattan in a fight? i think the rattan is nature's gift to the weak-handed. it's better than any artificial material i know for making impact weapons. the very light weight, flexibility and surface hardness are next to perfect. a rattan stick might hit you twice before you can deliver one with a bahi or camagong (if you're slow.)

If fast was "better" most Sabre fencers and stick fighting teachers would retire at 25.

I wouldn't be confident facing any kind of metal weapon with a Rattan cane, but my Kamagong Garotte is a different story.

[Edwood7]

I have been learning some pretty straight forward and practical stick fighting work with Scott Babb (founder of the Libre Fighting System).

He has a DVD set you really should check out.

[HeavyHanded]

What is it that distinguishes Libre from other FMA?

[medcommander]

I think I should explain why I chose practical when describing the topic of this thread. I understand that there is a wide variety of martial forms which utilize some form of stick. That said most of these have devolved into purely demonstrative arts and have no real substance other than flahy moves. By practical I meant that the art still retains some of its martial abilities.

Personally let me describe my philosophy on weapons in general.
1. If I can use a knife then I can use a stick of similar size just as easily. The body mechanics are similar and can be applied easier than vise versa.
2. A longer staff like weapon gives you more options and a longer range.
3. I don't carry weapons I carry tools. They function as tools first and weapons secound.

With these philosophies in mind I've come to the conclusion that it would probably be a good idea to learn how to use my tools as weapons. Since I often carry a staff/trekking pole when in the woods I was looking at different styles and ideas to train in. I'm very interested in Irish stick fighting but am not interested in the Fillipino arts and the Dog Brothers, each for different reasons.

Because of the stick length that is used in Fillipino martial arts I really don't have anything that I use/carry which I can use in that application. Since I really would have no use for an extendable baton I really don't want to carry one either. I believe Fillipino martial arts are indeed very effective and pretty freaking awesome they just don't mesh well with what I carry.

I must admit this is my first time hearing about the Dog Borthers, but after doing a little research I am a little skeptical of their methods. For one it looks more like a backyard brawl then a real developement of fighting techniques. Its my personal belief that martial arts are meant to give you the skills to control a situation. Any idiot (a.k.a. me) can beat the crap out of someone. The real test is disabling someone who really wants to hurt you. I really didn't get why they weren't wearing more padding? Being tough is good and all but if I break your hand your training regiment is pretty screwed up... Also I don'
think it simulates an actual fight very well. To me its like comparing UFC to Krav Maga, yes UFC fighters are some tough SOB's and very good athletes, but they would most likely get their butts handed to them in a real fight.

BTW this is just my opinion, feel free to post yours.

-MC

[Black Knife]

I think I should explain why I chose practical when describing the topic of this thread. I understand that there is a wide variety of martial forms which utilize some form of stick. That said most of these have devolved into purely demonstrative arts and have no real substance other than flahy moves. By practical I meant that the art still retains some of its martial abilities.

Personally let me describe my philosophy on weapons in general.
1. If I can use a knife then I can use a stick of similar size just as easily. The body mechanics are similar and can be applied easier than vise versa.
2. A longer staff like weapon gives you more options and a longer range.
3. I don't carry weapons I carry tools. They function as tools first and weapons secound.

With these philosophies in mind I've come to the conclusion that it would probably be a good idea to learn how to use my tools as weapons. Since I often carry a staff/trekking pole when in the woods I was looking at different styles and ideas to train in. I'm very interested in Irish stick fighting but am not interested in the Fillipino arts and the Dog Brothers, each for different reasons.

Because of the stick length that is used in Fillipino martial arts I really don't have anything that I use/carry which I can use in that application. Since I really would have no use for an extendable baton I really don't want to carry one either. I believe Fillipino martial arts are indeed very effective and pretty freaking awesome they just don't mesh well with what I carry.

I must admit this is my first time hearing about the Dog Borthers, but after doing a little research I am a little skeptical of their methods. For one it looks more like a backyard brawl then a real developement of fighting techniques. Its my personal belief that martial arts are meant to give you the skills to control a situation. Any idiot (a.k.a. me) can beat the crap out of someone. The real test is disabling someone who really wants to hurt you. I really didn't get why they weren't wearing more padding? Being tough is good and all but if I break your hand your training regiment is pretty screwed up... Also I don'
think it simulates an actual fight very well. To me its like comparing UFC to Krav Maga, yes UFC fighters are some tough SOB's and very good athletes, but they would most likely get their butts handed to them in a real fight.

BTW this is just my opinion, feel free to post yours.

-MC

Huh?........UFC fighters would get their butt kicked in a real fight....and you based this on what? So you can beat a UFC fighter in a street fight? Sorry but no Krava Maga instructor in the U.S. including fat ass Levine is going to beat a UFC fighter or an amateur MMA fighter in a street fight.

[djjonny]

That's a grey area. It all depends:
1) How long and hard either have trained
2) How they have trained (sparring, for realistic encounters ......etc)
3) Experience in street fights if they happened to survive any

[jayinhk]

That's a grey area. It all depends:
1) How long and hard either have trained
2) How they have trained (sparring, for realistic encounters ......etc)
3) Experience in street fights if they happened to survive any

It also depends on the time of day and if they're on their A game!

[Edwood7]

What is it that distinguishes Libre from other FMA?

Principles of Libre Fighting
1) Libre is about attacking. It’s not about countering or trying to move around an opponent’s defense — It is about tearing through the opponents defense.

2) Strategy in Libre involves reading an opponent’s stance, guard, and position and exploiting it. The practitioner also utilizes footwork, feints, and line-of-sight to break through the opponents defense.

3) Defense in Libre comes through utilizing footwork to control distance, evade, bait, and offset the opponent. Blocks and/or parries are rarely used.

4) Libre isn’t about “dueling”; it is about “fighting”. Libre doesn’t try to pick an opponent apart; it is intended to rip them apart in the fastest and most violent ways at the practitioner’s disposal. That is where the term “Libre Fighting” comes from. It isn’t a traditional martial art, it isn’t a “system” or “style”. It is, at its root, simply “fighting.”

5) Libre doesn’t limit itself to “techniques.” We study ways to use anything around to our advantage. This includes using ones clothing, or the opponent’s clothing, to blind, choke, or distract the opponent. Using whatever is within reach as a projectile. Spitting, biting, pinching, hair pulling, and head butting. Smashing the opponent’s skull into a wall, curb, or table. Libre practitioners learn to improvise to prevail.

6) Libre is not geared towards the use of heavier agricultural blades. It is geared towards the use of a common folding knife that one might carry on the street. That is why heavy emphasis is placed on reinforced slashes and attacking ONLY vital or crippling areas. The smaller “street blade” simply is not capable of causing tremendous amounts of damage as easily as a heavy agricultural blade. That is why no superfluous cuts or stabs are used. Every strike with the “street blade” must do as much damage as possible.

7) Libre is meant to grow. It is meant to complement whatever style of fighting the user carries. Libre should ultimately mold to the individual, the individual should not mold to Libre. Practitioners are encouraged to make Libre their own, to use what they have in conjunction with Libre.

[Black Knife]

Principles of Libre Fighting
1) Libre is about attacking. It’s not about countering or trying to move around an opponent’s defense — It is about tearing through the opponents defense.

2) Strategy in Libre involves reading an opponent’s stance, guard, and position and exploiting it. The practitioner also utilizes footwork, feints, and line-of-sight to break through the opponents defense.

3) Defense in Libre comes through utilizing footwork to control distance, evade, bait, and offset the opponent. Blocks and/or parries are rarely used.

4) Libre isn’t about “dueling”; it is about “fighting”. Libre doesn’t try to pick an opponent apart; it is intended to rip them apart in the fastest and most violent ways at the practitioner’s disposal. That is where the term “Libre Fighting” comes from. It isn’t a traditional martial art, it isn’t a “system” or “style”. It is, at its root, simply “fighting.”

5) Libre doesn’t limit itself to “techniques.” We study ways to use anything around to our advantage. This includes using ones clothing, or the opponent’s clothing, to blind, choke, or distract the opponent. Using whatever is within reach as a projectile. Spitting, biting, pinching, hair pulling, and head butting. Smashing the opponent’s skull into a wall, curb, or table. Libre practitioners learn to improvise to prevail.

6) Libre is not geared towards the use of heavier agricultural blades. It is geared towards the use of a common folding knife that one might carry on the street. That is why heavy emphasis is placed on reinforced slashes and attacking ONLY vital or crippling areas. The smaller “street blade” simply is not capable of causing tremendous amounts of damage as easily as a heavy agricultural blade. That is why no superfluous cuts or stabs are used. Every strike with the “street blade” must do as much damage as possible.

7) Libre is meant to grow. It is meant to complement whatever style of fighting the user carries. Libre should ultimately mold to the individual, the individual should not mold to Libre. Practitioners are encouraged to make Libre their own, to use what they have in conjunction with Libre.

You just saved me a lot of writing......