cas tactical wakizashi or katana

**will_1400** · 06-21-2012, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Tony8179

Wow, it sounds like all the experts here want to dissuade you from buying any sword because you are simply incapable of swinging one.

Anyway, considering you weren't asking for any other suggestions rather than if you should buy choice A or choice B, my suggestion would be the CAS Waki if you can find one. The shorter blade will be easier to carry and wield if you ever must do so.

Care to tell us your background? Ever had any actual training on how to actually use a katana-type blade? Here's a hint: it's more than "swing at the other guy".

The OP did ask for a comparison, between X and Y, but for his stated purpose, neither option is really suitable. Enough so that thare are far better options for the same money.

**Silverthorn** · 06-21-2012, 04:45 PM

Now Now your all pretty, theres no need to fight...lol

What if what the OP is really saying is, "I want a sword and I am justifying that want by saying it could work for self defense in a pinch, better than my broken lamp stand would" then could we answer his question without it becoming a debate storm?

I mean really who "Needs" a reason to buy a cool blade? I know he said SHTF but I think we cleared that on the first page. A long sword is dificult in CQCB a shorter sword is better for that, and a traditional Katana takes a lot of practice and skill to use well without ruining it. So realisticly you probably dont want either of the 2 swords you mentioned. There are a few non traditional waki style blades that might work better. The Busse and Bussekin wakis are well reviewed, and the Hanwei Banshi seems to be reviewed well for toughness also. Shop it around, if your looking for a defensive blade, you could even get one custom made. If you just like the two original swords just because, then pick the one you like the most, and who cares what we think ..lol

**Tony8179** · 06-21-2012, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by will_1400

Care to tell us your background? Ever had any actual training on how to actually use a katana-type blade? Here's a hint: it's more than "swing at the other guy".

The OP did ask for a comparison, between X and Y, but for his stated purpose, neither option is really suitable. Enough so that thare are far better options for the same money.

My background? Do you mean you want to know if I'm an operator, a ninja, a samurai, or an expert on all things "tactical"? I'm none of those things and I don't claim to be. I'm a normal blue collar guy from NY. I have almost zero training in how to swing a sword except for a few stick fighting lessons a martial artist friend of mine showed me. I don't know proper stance or proper technique. I do know that if the SHTF and I need to swing a sword then I need to hit people with the sharp side of the blade.

I don't need to know how to decapitate a man with one sweep of my blade. I don't need to know how to draw the sword from the sheath with the proper technique. I don't need to know the laws that pertain to me carrying a sword because, as stated, the shite has already hit the fan and the police are either indisposed of or gone. All I really need to know that is if someone comes into my immediate area and I don't have a firearm at the ready then I better hit that person with the sharp side of the blade and then either get the hell out of there or get my firearm out.

I'm sure that there are some here that have trained in the proper technique, and stances, and all that. I have nothing but respect for those people. They have a skill that I will never have, but at the same time it doesn't take a master swordsman to swing a blade at someone when need be.

Again, I would prefer the Waki to the full sized Katana.

**Nate805** · 06-21-2012, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Tony8179

My background? Do you mean you want to know if I'm an operator, a ninja, a samurai, or an expert on all things "tactical"? I'm none of those things and I don't claim to be. I'm a normal blue collar guy from NY. I have almost zero training in how to swing a sword except for a few stick fighting lessons a martial artist friend of mine showed me. I don't know proper stance or proper technique. I do know that if the SHTF and I need to swing a sword then I need to hit people with the sharp side of the blade.

I don't need to know how to decapitate a man with one sweep of my blade. I don't need to know how to draw the sword from the sheath with the proper technique. I don't need to know the laws that pertain to me carrying a sword because, as stated, the shite has already hit the fan and the police are either indisposed of or gone. All I really need to know that is if someone comes into my immediate area and I don't have a firearm at the ready then I better hit that person with the sharp side of the blade and then either get the hell out of there or get my firearm out.

I'm sure that there are some here that have trained in the proper technique, and stances, and all that. I have nothing but respect for those people. They have a skill that I will never have, but at the same time it doesn't take a master swordsman to swing a blade at someone when need be.

Again, I would prefer the Waki to the full sized Katana.

Agreed, no grown man is usually that incompetent in being swinging something. Will it be as good a hit as a samurai can deliver? nope but would it do the job? Yup.

**will_1400** · 06-21-2012, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Tony8179

My background? Do you mean you want to know if I'm an operator, a ninja, a samurai, or an expert on all things "tactical"? I'm none of those things and I don't claim to be. I'm a normal blue collar guy from NY. I have almost zero training in how to swing a sword except for a few stick fighting lessons a martial artist friend of mine showed me. I don't know proper stance or proper technique. I do know that if the SHTF and I need to swing a sword then I need to hit people with the sharp side of the blade.

I don't need to know how to decapitate a man with one sweep of my blade. I don't need to know how to draw the sword from the sheath with the proper technique. I don't need to know the laws that pertain to me carrying a sword because, as stated, the shite has already hit the fan and the police are either indisposed of or gone. All I really need to know that is if someone comes into my immediate area and I don't have a firearm at the ready then I better hit that person with the sharp side of the blade and then either get the hell out of there or get my firearm out.

I'm sure that there are some here that have trained in the proper technique, and stances, and all that. I have nothing but respect for those people. They have a skill that I will never have, but at the same time it doesn't take a master swordsman to swing a blade at someone when need be.

Again, I would prefer the Waki to the full sized Katana.

Figured as much. A katana or wakizashi aren't hacking/slashing weapons; they're cutting/slicing weapons. To use them most effectively, you need to perform the cuts in a specific manner. If you just flail with it like it's a machete, it's more likely to damage the cutting edge or even break than do the job its supposed to do. I've been training with katanas for a while and for their intended purpose, I feel there's no finer blade to be had. And yet, why do I caution people to not have one unless they know what they're doing with it? It has nothing to do with snobbery and everything to do with knowing what a katana is and isn't.

Let's forget swords for a moment and think about something else. Say... working on the electrical wiring in a house. Sure, any joe with a screw driver, the outlet, and the wiring can put in a new wall outlet. However, if the average joe doesn't know the subtlties of what he's trying to do, he's very likely to get himself fried doing it. Same principle applies.

ETA: here's another one. Think of a katana as an F-1 race car and a machete or seax as a Honda Civic. For the average person which is going to be more useful?

**Tony8179** · 06-21-2012, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by will_1400

Figured as much. A katana or wakizashi aren't hacking/slashing weapons; they're cutting/slicing weapons. To use them most effectively, you need to perform the cuts in a specific manner. If you just flail with it like it's a machete, it's more likely to damage the cutting edge or even break than do the job its supposed to do. I've been training with katanas for a while and for their intended purpose, I feel there's no finer blade to be had. And yet, why do I caution people to not have one unless they know what they're doing with it? It has nothing to do with snobbery and everything to do with knowing what a katana is and isn't.

Let's forget swords for a moment and think about something else. Say... working on the electrical wiring in a house. Sure, any joe with a screw driver, the outlet, and the wiring can put in a new wall outlet. However, if the average joe doesn't know the subtlties of what he's trying to do, he's very likely to get himself fried doing it. Same principle applies.

With a code book, a YouTube tutorial, and a little drive any Average Joe can wire a house, but they may not be able to do work in a large Power House. The same goes for basic sword use. You've been trained to know how to use a Katana or Wakizashi properly, and as I said, I respect that. You understand how to wield the blade properly and you would be able to use a sword to it's highest potential. I am a layman and while it may take you one swing of sword it may take me one or two more swings of a blade to accomplish the same task. I understand that a traditionally made Katana or Waki is not a Machete or large chopper. I never said they were choppers. What I did say is that it doesn't take a true professional samurai to use one effectively just as you do not need to be a knife fighting expert in order to wield a knife effectively.

Basically, while I appreciate the time you've spent at learning the proper technique, I don't think you need to spend all that time and learn all that technique in order to wield a sword when the shit hits the fan. In a competition you would make me look like an absolute fool, I don't doubt that, but I think we could accomplish the same thing with a sword if we were both being charged by someone that wanted to attack us. You would probably just be able to do it with more grace and technique.

I'll use another comparison. A handgun in extremely skilled hands (not mine) can effectively hit a target at 100 yards. That same handgun in the hands of someone that only knows how to pull the trigger will be just as deadly when they only have to lift the barrel and pull the trigger at 3 feet.

Personally, I think this thread was derailed very early on.

I would still go with the Waki over the Katana.

**will_1400** · 06-21-2012, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Tony8179

With a code book, a YouTube tutorial, and a little drive any Average Joe can wire a house, but they may not be able to do work in a large Power House. The same goes for basic sword use. You've been trained to know how to use a Katana or Wakizashi properly, and as I said, I respect that. You understand how to wield the blade properly and you would be able to use a sword to it's highest potential. I am a layman and while it may take you one swing of sword it may take me one or two more swings of a blade to accomplish the same task. I understand that a traditionally made Katana or Waki is not a Machete or large chopper. I never said they were choppers. What I did say is that it doesn't take a true professional samurai to use one effectively just as you do not need to be a knife fighting expert in order to wield a knife effectively.

Basically, while I appreciate the time you've spent at learning the proper technique, I don't think you need to spend all that time and learn all that technique in order to wield a sword when the shit hits the fan. In a competition you would make me look like an absolute fool, I don't doubt that, but I think we could accomplish the same thing with a sword if we were both being charged by someone that wanted to attack us. You would probably just be able to do it with more grace and technique.

I'll use another comparison. A handgun in extremely skilled hands (not mine) can effectively hit a target at 100 yards. That same handgun in the hands of someone that only knows how to pull the trigger will be just as deadly when they only have to lift the barrel and pull the trigger at 3 feet.

Personally, I think this thread was derailed very early on.

I would still go with the Waki over the Katana.

You say you respect my training, but by your actions, you do not. But since you've clearly made up your mind despite many of us who've trained with katanas/wakizashis flat-out saying that, unless one is willing to learn to use the blade properly, they'd be better served with a different style of blade, I'm going to stop wasting my breath. However, I reserve the right to endlessly gloat "I told you so" if by one's lack of training the end up lopping off their own limb due to a bad swing or eating the blade when it breaks from misuse.

**Tony8179** · 06-21-2012, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by will_1400

You say you respect my training, but by your actions, you do not. But since you've clearly made up your mind despite many of us who've trained with katanas/wakizashis flat-out saying that, unless one is willing to learn to use the blade properly, they'd be better served with a different style of blade, I'm going to stop wasting my breath. However, I reserve the right to endlessly gloat "I told you so" if by one's lack of training the end up lopping off their own limb due to a bad swing or eating the blade when it breaks from misuse.

What actions have I taken that shows any disprespect for your training? I see it as you having this attitude that one absolutely needs to have the proper training to even pick up a katana or wakizashi otherwise one is just going to hurt oneself because that person, without that proper training, couldn't possibly swing a sword without hurting his or herself. I am using the comparison to firearms as another reference point. I may not be trained to pull of a 100 yard shot with a pistol, but I can damn sure push the barrel up against someone's chest and pull the trigger. It may not be pretty, it may not be what someone with the proper training will do, but it will get the job done.

If the choice comes down to just letting some guy attack me or using my basic instinct to swing what's in my hand, then that is no choice at all. I may break the blade and kill myself in the process or I could just let the guy attack and kill me. No choice.

The OP:

Originally Posted by buckmaster96

Which ones better I want to get one but would like to know which one is easiest to carry and feels best in hand

He asked about A and B. He did not ask about C. He did not ask what the experts suggest that he buy. He asked about the CAS Tac Waki and the CAS Tac Katana.

My answer is STILL the Waki.

**XanRa** · 06-21-2012, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by Tony8179

He asked about A and B. He did not ask about C. He did not ask what the experts suggest that he buy. He asked about the CAS Tac Waki and the CAS Tac Katana.

My answer is STILL the Waki.

I agree on waki

And your avatar- is that what I think it is?

**Tony8179** · 06-21-2012, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by XanRa

I agree on waki

And your avatar- is that what I think it is?

It's an RJ Martin Transfusion.

**XanRa** · 06-22-2012, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by Tony8179

It's an RJ Martin Transfusion.

Can always recognize RJ Martin's work
Got to love it

**djjonny** · 06-22-2012, 04:33 AM

One actually does need training to use a waki or katana
It's not about picking one up and hacking away like a samurai, it's about drawing out the sheath to use it in the 1st place.

If you using at home and see the danger coming then fine you can pull it out and have it ready.

Now asuming it's legal to carry it out in the streets to prepare for shtf.
Lets also asume you attacker or attackers are stupid enough to pull out knives and charge you from 21 ft like gun training.

Are you going to be able to dray your sword out to use it?
if we look at a katana. You have around 3 ft of blade to draw from a sheath. Trust me if you are trained in sword drawing, it's easy for an untrained person to stop you drawing if he reaches you before you draw.

Asumung you right handed. It takes simple left forearm against your right forearm to stop you drawing your sword followed by a knife in his right hand to you jugular vein.

If you drawing from you back then simply grabbing you righ forearm with his left hand will stop you drawing

With respect to will_1400 knowing how to use your sword (as in techniques and movements) is part of it. Conditioning of your wrists, arms and tendons is the other part

**djjonny** · 06-22-2012, 04:36 AM

deleted. accidental double post

**Tony8179** · 06-22-2012, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by djjonny

One actually does need training to use a waki or katana
It's not about picking one up and hacking away like a samurai, it's about drawing out the sheath to use it in the 1st place.

If you using at home and see the danger coming then fine you can pull it out and have it ready.

Now asuming it's legal to carry it out in the streets to prepare for shtf.
Lets also asume you attacker or attackers are stupid enough to pull out knives and charge you from 21 ft like gun training.

Are you going to be able to dray your sword out to use it?
if we look at a katana. You have around 3 ft of blade to draw from a sheath. Trust me if you are trained in sword drawing, it's easy for an untrained person to stop you drawing if he reaches you before you draw.

Asumung you right handed. It takes simple left forearm against your right forearm to stop you drawing your sword followed by a knife in his right hand to you jugular vein.

If you drawing from you back then simply grabbing you righ forearm with his left hand will stop you drawing

With respect to will_1400 knowing how to use your sword (as in techniques and movements) is part of it. Conditioning of your wrists, arms and tendons is the other part

Is there a parrot in here? I could have swore I just had this same conversation.

We are talking about a last ditch weapon here. I'm not going to leave my rifles and pistols behind and roam the chaotic wasteland with nothing but a Katana or Waki. Proper training is the last thing on my mind if I have to use a sword as a last ditch weapon. What I am going to be thinking about is "Get this damn thing out and hit that guy with it!". To be honest, most of even the highly trained will falter with their draw and their stance upon having to actually use a sword on a rushing attacker.

I'm not worried about the legality of carrying a waki after the shit has hit the fan. When I say shit hit the fan I mean world wide chaos. It's highly doubtful that the police are going to merge on my location because there is sword nearby.

You're talking about a Katana with 3ft. of blade when I clearly stated that I would choose the Waki with a blade about a foot shorter than a Kantana.

All I can say is that if the SHTF ever then I better count my luck stars that all the highly trained Samurai that roam the Earth will either be dead or too busy to bother with the likes of me and my lack of training.

To the OP, again, I would choose the Tac Waki over the Tac Katana

**BryFry** · 06-22-2012, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Tony8179

We are talking about a last ditch weapon here. I'm not going to leave my rifles and pistols behind and roam the chaotic wasteland with nothing but a Katana or Waki. Proper training is the last thing on my mind if I have to use a sword as a last ditch weapon. What I am going to be thinking about is "Get this damn thing out and hit that guy with it!". To be honest, most of even the highly trained will falter with their draw and their stance upon having to actually use a sword on a rushing attacker.

I agree with you Tony.

I'm no 12th level ninja or whatever, but I have owned and used wakis and katanas for a couple of decades. (for fun, simply because I like them)
I have several waki style blades I use as machetes that have felled many MANY a tree with plenty of wear, but no real damaged to the swords. I have no formal training yet I consistently use them to great effect, even out chopping friends using traditional machetes.
Yes I realize trees are not people, but this still demonstrates that (1)- not all sword shaped blades are delicate flowers that fall apart with the slightest use (or abuse). (2)- an untrained guy with a basic feel for swinging blades can chop to great effect. (also I've noted that even without using "propper" slicing technique my wakis still chop amazingly well)
I even preffer to cary my wakis over the shoulder baldric style. Have done so for many years, and have never had a problem drawing a waki sized blade. ...Resheathing is trickier, but with only a small amount of practice is not difficult at all... not to mention that resheathing tends to be less of a speed priority than unsheathing.

I wonder how much "real" experience our "experts" here actually have? How many times have they used a sword on a real attacker? How many times have they seen an untrained yet committed defender/attacker fail to damage their enemy with a real sword?
I would also note that while techniqe and muscle memory are great things, I have also noticed that some people can get too hung up on "correct" or "traditional" forms, only to choke or freeze up when reality does not match up with their training sessions. -No offense, just an observation.

Look, I'm aware that the right techniques will increase the effectiveness of any weapon, but you don't need to be an expert to stick someone with a knife, wack them with a sword, or pull a trigger. I can agree that a full sized sword can be impractical in many senses, but I am of the opinion that the right waki style sword has its uses and advantages, even for the non-ninja and samurai. You could weigh the pros and cons of sword vs xxx as a backup choice, but first the OP simply wants to narrow the choice between waki or katana...

I say waki.

**stabman** · 06-22-2012, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by BryFry

I wonder how much "real" experience our "experts" here actually have? How many times have they used a sword on a real attacker?

Unless their IP address comes from a federal penitentiary, none.
People who have are generally referred to as murderers.

And most murderers are wondrously unskilled, yet they manage to kill people.

**will_1400** · 06-23-2012, 03:58 AM

Originally Posted by stabman

Unless their IP address comes from a federal penitentiary, none.
People who have are generally referred to as murderers.

And most murderers are wondrously unskilled, yet they manage to kill people.

Funny thing about them (murderers): they usually have the advantage of surprise and initiative and are vicious to boot. They create the action, forcing a defender to react. It's not to hard to sneak up on someone and blindside them, either from behind or by some kind of ruse. It's MUCH harder to defend against such an attack, especially if you're facing someone who's done it before. It's why I keep thumping on training. Yes, it's possible for one to make a wild swing and get lucky. But it's more likely you'll (general "you") be stabbed several times before realizing just what the unholy **** happened, will be in an awkward position, and will be having a very difficult time to get to whatever weapon you have on you, be it knife, gun, or sword.

Training mitigates a lot of the disadvantage one would be facing in those circumstances since you'll (hopefully) have a pretty good grasp on what you want to do, the mechanics involved, if you're even capable of performing said action, etc. If done properly, training will allow you to a) not panic; b) react almost instinctively to deal with the threat in the most efficient manner possible at the time; c) allow you to percieve the possible attack before it even happens and give time to either escape, or pre-empt the attack with violence of your own.

But what do I know? I've only been training and applying that knowledge for almost 10 years now.

**Nate805** · 06-23-2012, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by will_1400

Let's see... off the top of my head... 8 are ex/current military who are of MOS's that involved making badguys take dirt naps and who used their hand-to-hand skills to save their bacon (they took the military combatives and hybrid-ized it with parent style like kenpo, wing chun, TKD, and escrima). 3 are prison guards who've had to deal with multiple armed opponents on a semi-regular basis (you may laugh, but prisoners are crafty SOBs when it comes to improvised weapons). My karate instructor had been part of a "youth club" before a GSW woke him up and made him get his life straight.

As for remembering the difference... pro fighters are usually very skilled. No argument there. But there aren't that many pros who are good at handling multiple opponents that I know personally. I also don't know very many pro fighters who would be willing to go into a fight with the intent of killing their opponent, if necessary. Slightly different mindset than beating up another guy for a paycheck.

I think we will have to agree to disagree but for what it's worth this is my view.

1. The military guys had MOS's that involved firing assault rifles and other firearms. I'm thinking the times they did probably have to use there martial arts abilities were probably few and in between. Even then who was it against? some scrawny,weaker,malnourished,less trained Mujahideen fighter? I have nothing but respect for the military but let's be honest about what you are talking about.

2. Prison guards are not usually the most impressive individuals from what I have seen. I also believe a lot of the reason they aren't killed or assaulted more often is because of the special circumstances of the situation.You honestly didn't say enough about this so I don't have too much to say about this.

3. Fighting multiple opponents is never an easy thing, me and you both know that is more hollywood then anything. Still even then I would still count on the much better trained,extremely fit( and probably stronger) and more athletic professional fighter in that situation. As far as the killing the opponent if necessary thing.. I don't think a professional fighter would have to do that anyway as we would just be able to knock the person out or choke them to sleep. Also, I am sure if he had to he would.

I think that you seem to be putting a little too much emphasis on the military, law enforcement " tactical" approach to these guys abilities when we are talking about actual FIGHTING. So your karate instructor was part of a gang when he was younger? I am not sure what a youth club is or what is slang for. However, if I am right I am not impressed. I live in a city with a lot of gang culture and activity , I am on good terms with actual gang members that respect me. Most of these individuals( though they are more willing then your average person to engage in violence) are not physically impressive in either capability or just general fitness. Most of these individuals would stab someone or gang up on a guy in a second but couldn't fight there way out of a paper bag. These guys would likely be flattened in short order inside of one exchange of punches by even your average amateur boxer that trains on a normal basis.

I like this part of forum but there is also a lot of things that bug me about it. One of the things I don't like is the posts about the hypothetical boogey man that knives won't work on, swords won't work on, guns won't work on, pepper spray won't work on,punches won't work on,etc. I think this is the kind of fear mongering that we should be against on Practac.

-N

**stabman** · 06-24-2012, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by will_1400

But it's more likely you'll (general "you") be stabbed several times before realizing just what the unholy **** happened, will be in an awkward position, and will be having a very difficult time to get to whatever weapon you have on you, be it knife, gun, or sword.

But what do I know? I've only been training and applying that knowledge for almost 10 years now.

Well, I'm 35 and have been training in some capacity since age 7...and if someone decides to murder me without any warning, well, I'll probably be dead.