The Elephant in the Room.

[Preacher Man]

I will. It does.

Then please point me to the current practicing country that serves as example.

[quietmike]

Then please point me to the current practicing example.

That's just because the right people weren't in charge. We'll get it right THIS TIME.

[BG42EDGE]

I guess you missed this post.

Wrong. In academic paper or among the disciples of Jesus or wherever, pure communism would be one where there was no greed.

I didn't say there was a "current practicing example."

You did. That's what's called a red herring.

[BG42EDGE]

Back to topic:

When does Proto-Fascism become Fascism?

Fascism does emerge in capitalist crises, the moments when the struggle for production reaches a point when the workers can no longer purchase the products they produce, a crisis of over-production and declining profits and/or an intense battle for cheaper labor, raw materials, and new markets; that is, war.

As in........China emerging, Bush recession, huge loss of middle-class wealth........hmmmm.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fa...sm_Gibson.html

[timcsaw]

...The good Rev. Jeremiah Wright is a Godly man.

^Trolling?

Most Buddhists are commendable in their practice of religion, as are some other religions.

You know "most" of the Buddhists in the world do you?

It's the mean, greedy, aggressive and very troubled radical right wing Christians that tend to do evil. They are a small minority of the world's people who "believe in God."

Seeing lots of Christian terrorists in your neighborhood are you?

Some are well-intentioned, but confused. Some are evil. Many Christians realize this and they are not evil, but in fact commendably good. So there you are......it's a mixed bag of belief and confusion.

If people don't see things your way, they are confused and or evil? Allrighty then.

[BG42EDGE]

Originally Posted by BG42EDGE:

The good Rev. Jeremiah Wright is a Godly man.

Response:

Trolling?

Now why do some people instantly respond to anything that causes them cognitive dissonance with "Trolling?"

It might be helpful to think about it for a while before having a knee-jerk reaction.

[Preacher Man]

I guess you missed this post.

[/B][/SIZE]

I didn't say there was a "current practicing example."

You did. That's what's called a red herring.

Actually, you implied there was an actual example.

From
wikipedia:

A red herring is a clue which is intended to be misleading, or distracting from the actual issue.

When I mentioned the problems of Soviet Communism your answer was that had no relation to "pure communism" and when I mentioned that "pure communism" is just a theoretical construct and you insisted it is not, your insistence that in practice there is such a thing as "pure communism" is a red herring.

At issue if "Pure Communism" is an actual practice or a theory. You insist it is not just theory but an actual practice. Where is it. Saying it is a practice but saying no country is practicing is disingenuous.

[BG42EDGE]

Actually, you implied there was an actual example.

That's simply not true.

If you want to continue with your red herring, be my guest.

I'll be on topic.

[BG42EDGE]

We move from Proto-Fascism to Fascism in stages.

This sounds a lot like where we're at now.

Paxton wrote that succeeding at the second stage "depends on certain relatively precise conditions: the weakness of a liberal state, whose inadequacies condemn the nation to disorder, decline, or humiliation; and political deadlock because the Right, the heir to power but unable to continue to wield it alone, refuses to accept a growing Left as a legitimate governing partner." He further noted that Hitler and Mussolini both took power under these same circumstances: "deadlock of constitutional government (produced in part by the polarization that the fascists abetted); conservative leaders who felt threatened by the loss of their capacity to keep the population under control at a moment of massive popular mobilization; an advancing Left; and conservative leaders who refused to work with that Left and who felt unable to continue to govern against the Left without further reinforcement."

And more ominously: "The most important variables...are the conservative elites' willingness to work with the fascists (along with a reciprocal flexibility on the part of the fascist leaders) and the depth of the crisis that induces them to cooperate."

That description sounds eerily like the dire straits our Congressional Republicans find themselves in right now. Though the GOP has been humiliated, rejected, and reduced to rump status by a series of epic national catastrophes mostly of its own making, its leadership can't even imagine governing cooperatively with the newly mobilized and ascendant Democrats. Lacking legitimate routes back to power, their last hope is to invest the hardcore remainder of their base with an undeserved legitimacy, recruit them as shock troops, and overthrow American democracy by force. If they can't win elections or policy fights, they're more than willing to take it to the streets, and seize power by bullying Americans into silence and complicity.

http://www.alternet.org/news/141819/...m/?page=entire

[timcsaw]

Originally Posted by BG42EDGE:

Response:

Now why do some people instantly respond to anything that causes them cognitive dissonance with "Trolling?"

It might be helpful to think about it for a while before having a knee-jerk reaction.

Because your comment was designed to elicit an obvious, specific emotional response, just as if I had made the statement: "Fred Phelps is a Godly man." or; "Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a Godly man." or "Mohammad was without sin, just like Christ."

You already "dance" on thin ice here... how will the Buck forum survive with out you?

[BG42EDGE]

Another leading intellectual sees it.

“In 1928 the Nazis had less than 2 percent of the vote,” he said. “Two years later, millions supported them. The public got tired of the incessant wrangling, and the service to the powerful, and the failure of those in power to deal with their grievances.”

He said the German people were susceptible to appeals about “the greatness of the nation, and defending it against threats, and carrying out the will of eternal providence.”

When farmers, the petit bourgeoisie, and Christian organizations joined forces with the Nazis, “the center very quickly collapsed,” Chomsky said.

No analogy is perfect, he said, but the echoes of fascism are “reverberating” today, he said.

http://www.progressive.org/wx041210.html

[timcsaw]

That's simply not true.

If you want to continue with your red herring, be my guest.

I'll be on topic.

"Oklahoma", if you please.

[BG42EDGE]

Red herring
noun
1.
a smoked herring.
2.
something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue.

The traditional way of explaining this is that a stinking fish was dragged in front of the hounds chasing a fox to throw them off the trail.

Really seems we got a couple people doing that here......why? It's more than just rude.

[BG42EDGE]

Anyhow, I'll be staying on topic.......undaunted by fish or foul.

[Hog Feet]

Really seems we got a couple people doing that here......why? It's more than just rude.

Do you think it's a conspiracy?

[BG42EDGE]

Meaningful and instructive quotes......ah, there are many.

Hermann Goering:
Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

[Trent Rock]

The problem is that greed is in our nature.

Well said, PM!!!

Which is why communism does not work
Not even on an island

One guy will want MORE coconuts than the other guy
Or he will think the other guy is not pulling his weight, labor wise
Or he will KILL the guy with a swift bolw to the head from said coconut....

Let us return to our island of Crusoe and Friday. Crusoe, isolated at first, has used his free will and self-ownership to learn about his wants and values, and how to satisfy them by transforming nature-given resources through "mixing" them with his labor. He has thereby produced and created property. Now suppose that Friday lands in another part of this island. He confronts two possible courses of action: he may, like Crusoe, become a producer, transform unused soil by his labor, and most likely exchange his product for that of the other man. In short, he may engage in production and exchange, in also creating property. Or, he may decide upon another course: he may spare himself the effort of production and exchange, and go over and seize by violence the fruits of Crusoe's labor. He may aggress against the producer.

A Crusoe Social Philosophy

[BG42EDGE]

Eisenhower's warning.......which nobody heard then and nobody seems to hear now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLuejot-Llk

[BG42EDGE]

When we can so easily murder and imprison those who disagree with our policies......where does it end?

“Fascism is capitalism plus murder.”
― Upton Sinclair

[BG42EDGE]

Since the Preacher has been complaining that all I had were quotes from Sinclair Lewis......let's find a few more that he can study.

“The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.... Among us today a concentration of private power without equal in history is growing.”
― Franklin D. Roosevelt

When the Supreme Court can give corporations the power to buy elections......is that not exactly what FDR was talking about?

Fascism.