Must be some more of that transparency

[Triton]

I don't know if you have been following the Fast and Furious scandal but if you have you know the rudiments. Namely that the Justice Department via the ATF allowed straw purchasers to purchase around 1000 guns and take them to Mexico. 300 Mexican citizens and 1 border patrol agent were killed by those weapons. Various theories abound about how this was in reality an attempt by the Justice Department to implement more gun controls in the United States etc. That may be or may not be but there has been an ongoing investigation for some time to try to find out who authorized this cluster and when. There are various theories about that too. In an attempt to get to the bottom of it all Congressman Issa has subpoened roughly 14000 documents. Justice has only coughed up around 7000, which really makes you wonder what they are trying to hide.

Congress is looking at charing Eric Holder in contempt. One would think that the obama who ran on a campaign based on openness would demand that his AG cough up the documents. Except that he didn't:

An extraordinary House committee hearing began considering a contempt measure against Attorney General Eric Holder on Wednesday even though President Barack Obama asserted executive privilege over documents sought by the panel investigating the botched Fast and Furious gun-running sting.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/20/politi...html?hpt=hp_t1

So rather than demanding transparency from his own Justice department the obama is deliberately stepping in to insure that there is NO transparency.

Hypocrisy much?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpwYh...e&noredirect=1

"Executive privilege" is not a good reason to withhold information from Congress."

I guess this is just some more of that obama transparency. It does make you wonder just what they are trying to hide though.

[BG42EDGE]

All this shows is that the Republicans, desperate for an issue to use in the elections, are trying to manufacture something from nothing.

And Obama put a stop to it.

That's the story.

Sort of a tempest in a teapot, isn't it?

[ttoney83]

IIRC, I have not read anything in the Constitution which refers to any sort of special privilage afforded the President. I do recal Article II, Section 3, clause 4 that he shall take care that the laws are faithfully executed....

As far as I can tell, Executive Orders are also unconstitutional, since, if this is done to exempt the president from various laws, or particular aspects or provisions of various laws, then technically, the president could never be found guilty of high crimes or misdemeanors as all he would have to do is cite an executive order, or claim executive privilage......Unless he forgot to write one.....

So, subpoena the president. Now he is impeding an investigation by Congress.

There is no reason for a president to intervene in a case, claiming executive privilage, unless he is implicated in the crime/s being investigated. The only people who try to hide things are people with something to hide. The president has now exposed himself as one who has something to hide.

This certainly does not surprise me. Holder has stalled as long as he could and now they have to play another card to forestall prosecution and or impeacment.

[BG42EDGE]

IIRC, I have not read anything in the Constitution which refers to any sort of special privilage afforded the President. I do recal Article II, Section 3, clause 4 that he shall take care that the laws are faithfully executed....

As far as I can tell, Executive Orders are also unconstitutional, since, if this is done to exempt the president from various laws, or particular aspects or provisions of various laws, then technically, the president could never be found guilty of high crimes or misdemeanors as all he would have to do is cite an executive order, or claim executive privilage......Unless he forgot to write one.....

So, subpoena the president. Now he is impeding an investigation by Congress.

There is no reason for a president to intervene in a case, claiming executive privilage, unless he is implicated in the crime/s being investigated. The only people who try to hide things are people with something to hide. The president has now exposed himself as one who has something to hide.

This certainly does not surprise me. Holder has stalled as long as he could and now they have to play another card to forestall prosecution and or impeacment.

They have played the card that puts an end to these particular political games from the Republicans.

As a side note, I have a question.

Why is it that all these claims about things being "unconstitutional" always come to nothing?

Constitution this, Constitution that.......many wild claims that this or that law is unconstitutional--and yet the laws stand.

Why?

It seems that the "unconstitutional" laws stay on the books if the Rulers want them to stay on the books.

Makes all the hoopla and ranting kind of pointless.

[ttoney83]

They have played the card that puts an end to these particular political games from the Republicans.

As a side note, I have a question.

Why is it that all these claims about things being "unconstitutional" always come to nothing?

Constitution this, Constitution that.......many wild claims that this or that law is unconstitutional--and yet the laws stand.

Why?

It seems that the "unconstitutional" laws stay on the books if the Rulers want them to stay on the books.

Makes all the hoopla and ranting kind of pointless.

False.....The People are awakening to the usurpations of the last Century and this. It may or may not happen that the unconstitutional laws are overturned. Pointing out the areas where our Constitution has been subverted is the first necessary act to restoring the Republic to the People. Such action is never pointless. What is pointless is inaction because of fear or apathy, or simply to go along to get along. That is the way to tyranny. The People are beginning to recognize this, and they are beginning to organize resistance to it in the form of the Tea Party and other movements.

[jdm61]

Just want to point out one more time that when President Bush invoked executive privilege when Obama was in the Senate, our Dear Leader protested vehemently.

[philwar]

All this shows is that the Republicans, desperate for an issue to use in the elections, are trying to manufacture something from nothing.

And Obama put a stop to it.

That's the story.

Sort of a tempest in a teapot, isn't it?

300+ people killed because of an Obama-flunky instigated sting, and you call it nothing. Stonewalling and even blocking a legit investigation is not a problem as long as the Messiah does it. Double standards much?
"A Single Death is a Tragedy; a Million Deaths is a Statistic." Holder would add "Three hundred deaths is a nuisance."

[jdm61]

The Mexico gun thing has been a red herring from the get go. Does anyone remember when the Obama Administration came out and said that they had determined that 90% of the guns that they had traced with the help of the Federales had come from the US? What they didn't tell you was that 90% of the guns THAT THEY COULD TRACE TO A SPECIFIC POINT OF SALE came from the US. In reality, those guns only amounted to about 16% of the total amount seized by the Mexican authorities. The rest could only be generally traced to their place of manufacture, which, in many cases where fully automatic weapons were seized, was the Peoples Republic of China.

[Skimo]

A blatantly idiotic move of actually letting guns go TO CRIMINALS and letting the chips fall where they may.

Again, they let bad guys walk.

They took the lives of people by letting known bad guys get their filthy murdering hands on firearms.

It calls for justice, every one that didn't blow the whistle, and if knowledge and or action in such activities can be proved, everyone involved deserves to take the punishment due.

[BG42EDGE]

False.....The People are awakening to the usurpations of the last Century and this. It may or may not happen that the unconstitutional laws are overturned. Pointing out the areas where our Constitution has been subverted is the first necessary act to restoring the Republic to the People. Such action is never pointless. What is pointless is inaction because of fear or apathy, or simply to go along to get along. That is the way to tyranny. The People are beginning to recognize this, and they are beginning to organize resistance to it in the form of the Tea Party and other movements.

I agree with much of that. I think that "Citizens United" will be overturned within 20 years and may even be reconsidered much sooner.

What I don't agree with is that it disproves what I said.

If "The People are awakening," as you claim......they must be hitting the snooze alarm button a lot because some of the gun control laws have been in effect for close to a hundred years and most of them for about fifty years.

[BG42EDGE]

The whole thing is political theatre.

It's a game.

Mexico is FLOODED with guns already and somehow a few more caused 300 deaths.

Ludicrous.

But it plays well in the political circus of the new Republican (TEA) Party.

[BlackKnight86]

They have played the card that puts an end to these particular political games from the Republicans.

As a side note, I have a question.

Why is it that all these claims about things being "unconstitutional" always come to nothing?

Constitution this, Constitution that.......many wild claims that this or that law is unconstitutional--and yet the laws stand.

Why?

It seems that the "unconstitutional" laws stay on the books if the Rulers want them to stay on the books.

Makes all the hoopla and ranting kind of pointless.

Because the two are completely unrelated. The Constitutionality of a law has to do with its compliance with the Constitution. Whether it is on the books or not has to do with a combination of the oath-keeping of the officials and the level of dumb-@$$edness of the populace.

But don't worry. The British still ruled the colonies, too....until one day, they didn't.

If "The People are awakening," as you claim......they must be hitting the snooze alarm button a lot because some of the gun control laws have been in effect for close to a hundred years and most of them for about fifty years.

Bill Clinton thought the same way you did; but then he did so much to reawaken the American militia movement....because he was a dumb@$$ and tried to enforce some of those laws that are still on the books. But thankfully, the Assault Weapons Ban is still on the books....oh, wait.....

[BG42EDGE]

the Assault Weapons Ban is still on the books...

You neglect to mention that it was not found to be unconstitutional.....it just expired.

We WERE, after all, talking about Constitutional matters.

[BG42EDGE]

The Constitutionality of a law has to do with its compliance with the Constitution.

And that is determined by........the Tea Party?

[Triton]

All this shows is that the Republicans, desperate for an issue to use in the elections, are trying to manufacture something from nothing.

And Obama put a stop to it.

That's the story.

Sort of a tempest in a teapot, isn't it?

It seems that our poster has no interest in a very real and quite likely criminal investigation or the hypocrisy being exuded by the obama. He doesn't care that people died including a border patrol agent due to this justice department operation. It would seem that the obama's broken promises about transparency don't bother him in the least. All he can see is that the obama is continuing to rule by decree and chicanery. He is apparently okay with that. One wonders if he was equally ambivalent when Bush was in office and evoked the same privilege.

[BlackKnight86]

You neglect to mention that it was not found to be unconstitutional.....it just expired.

We WERE, after all, talking about Constitutional matters.

Speaks to the dumb-@$$edness of the public.

Pay attention.

And that is determined by........the Tea Party?

Nope. Plain English speakers.

[timcsaw]

False.....The People are awakening to the usurpations of the last Century and this. It may or may not happen that the unconstitutional laws are overturned. Pointing out the areas where our Constitution has been subverted is the first necessary act to restoring the Republic to the People. Such action is never pointless. What is pointless is inaction because of fear or apathy, or simply to go along to get along. That is the way to tyranny. The People are beginning to recognize this, and they are beginning to organize resistance to it in the form of the Tea Party and other movements.

Myself and others have come to the conclusion that it is a waste of time to try to have a meaningful, open-minded discussion with a person who only seems to post for the shear amusement of engaging people in mind numbing debate that he does not truthfully care about participating in. We will no longer respond too, or engage such people (beyond this reply and suggestion to other members);

Moderator Ken Cox gives fair warning, and good advice to the membership in the RULES STICKY for the Political Arena (Bold and minor formating edit's mine);

Occasionally, a person will join the forum with the express purpose of stirring up hate and anger; or, perceiving this as a forum with a conservative majority, defecating in the conservative meeting place.

We call those who stir up trouble for trouble's sake, or who participate just to ridicule and abuse those who have a different viewpoint, trolls.

• They troll for trouble.
• They drag their hook, usually a series of intentionally inflamatory (flaming) posts, through a thread to see who they can catch, or who will take a bite.
• They want to start a flame war for their own amusement and self importance.

Trolls come from all walks of life and all political, religious and ethnic persuasions.

The moderators may come alongside and offer suggestions, model behavior, or even give warnings. On rare occasions, a moderator will ban a forumite for consistent trolling.
I have banned two forumites.

Generally, banned forumites come back with a new identity and try to behave themselves.
Those of us who moderate usually recognize them within two posts.
Even when they behave themselves, their writing style gives them away almost instantly.
We all have very distinct writing styles, usually invisible to ourselves but obvious to everyone else.

The best control of trolls comes from other forumites, and not from the moderators.

• First, one does not feed a troll.
• Responding with anger feeds a troll.
• The trolls like to see everyone get upset over them.

Attention, y'know?

Secondly, it helps to completely ignore a troll until they start posting in a responsible manner.
Ignore garbage; acknowledge courtesy, respect and sincerity,

Thirdly, it helps if fellow forumites confront a troll before the moderator does; and, confrontation does not mean calling someone a troll, but, rather, telling them how to post in a responsible and contributing manner.

[not2sharp]

All this shows is that the Republicans, desperate for an issue to use in the elections, are trying to manufacture something from nothing.

And Obama put a stop to it.

That's the story.

Sort of a tempest in a teapot, isn't it?

pointless post deleted....will not feed the troll.

n2s

[timcsaw]

pointless post deleted....will not feed the troll.

n2s

Good call.