Old news story about an Atienza Kali Student on Trial for Murder

[ednemo]

The guy was absolutely justified in using a knife in the defense of his friend's life. (IMO) Running away, ditching the weapon, and hiding out shows guilt though. A year ago I would have taken on that bouncer empty handed. Not so much now. If I was with a friend and it escalated to that point, I would have used what I had at my disposal to protect him. Whether it was a cane, knife or gun. I also would have retreated afterwards and called the police. Of course, that is based on what I have read about the situation. I worked as a bouncer for a while, and I would not be surprised if there was more to the story.

But you better believe if my friends or family were in danger I would do what I needed to do. I am an adult. I do not go out and pick fights with people. I walk away from them and later sit in my house enjoying a beer and revel in the fact that I am not having to deal with the police and don't have to spend time in the hospital. If someone attacks me or a friend, I will always do what I need to do.

[jnperrings]

A little late to the discussion, but this post just popped up on my radar.

I think there are a lot of good points being brought up in this analysis of the case. As with any situation dealing with lethal force, training plays an important role. The training discussion here is good.

A few good points made:

...the move Umali made here doesn't require a lot of training to pull off.

I think this particular case has more to do about the poor judgment of the guy with the knife and not the system that he trained in.

Stabman made maybe the best point:

Should have just smoked outside.

Take that a logical step further - "Should have just stayed home."

In the end, it comes down to the individual and the decisions they make. (Guns don't kill people, etc etc...)

Also, sorry to steer away from the OP topic, but I do have to address this "no empty-hand training" business.

Black Knife, didn't we cover your recurring, un-informed bad-mouthing problem just last year?

Their empty hand stuff is not effective for real fighting. I can't see these fat guys from Sayoc Kali move more than a few seconds without having to take a break. Trust me if Atienza Kali does teach empty hand techniques it sure did not fucking to this dude any good or else he would be in jail awaiting trial for murder. Believe me no Sayoc or Atienza Kali instructor is going to teach a person how to correctly apply a choke. Most FMA styles of empty hand fighting is weak and this is something I have seen myself. Sayoc Kali guys used to teach Tae Kwon Do before they were taught FMA from Leo Gaje.

To set the record straight, Atienza/Sayoc does train empty hands. In fact, our entire Knife Receiver curriculum is empty-hand. In addition to the Receiver curriculum there is:

• Panantukan
• Sipa-Sikaran
• Guard 5
• Lakad
• Receiver Sets
• Disruptions
• Power-Striking
• More!

BTW, This quote is the best!

Believe me no Sayoc or Atienza Kali instructor is going to teach a person how to correctly apply a choke.

If you go back to those forum threads where you claimed we "don't spar" you'll re-discover our stick-grappling video where one sparring session ends in a triangle choke LOL!

Most FMA styles of empty hand fighting is weak and this is something I have seen myself.

The fact is, Black Knife, you have NOT really seen Sayoc/Atienza.

Anyone who knows the Atienzas' background, growing up in Jamaica, Queens, would find the assertion that they have no empty-hand pretty funny.

[James Y]

I would vote not guilty too. However, the jury convicted him of first-degree manslaughter. The judge sentenced him to 17 years in prison . His last appeal was denied in 2008. I believe the knife that was used was a Spyderco police model with a full serrated blade. This is what the trial judge had say to about the knife,"The deadliest knife I've ever seen in a court room. There can be no other purpose (for the knife) but to injure or kill somebody." You got to love those NY judges. We thought we had it bad, out in Cali. By the way the same make and model knife appeared in a Hell's Angels vs. Mongols brawl in Nevada. Other than the fact that the lockbacks did not "fail". Sal sure does not want this kind of publicity for his knives.

If the knife was a Police model, then this is another example of how non-knife people exaggerate descriptions of knives. The Police's blade is, I believe, 4 1/8" long, not 6".

Jim

[jnperrings]

If the knife was a Police model, then this is another example of how non-knife people exaggerate descriptions of knives. The Police's blade is, I believe, 4 1/8" long, not 6".

I agree, Jim. It's like the "assault-rifle" argument.

[Black Knife]

A little late to the discussion, but this post just popped up on my radar.

I think there are a lot of good points being brought up in this analysis of the case. As with any situation dealing with lethal force, training plays an important role. The training discussion here is good.

A few good points made:





Stabman made maybe the best point:



Take that a logical step further - "Should have just stayed home."

In the end, it comes down to the individual and the decisions they make. (Guns don't kill people, etc etc...)

Also, sorry to steer away from the OP topic, but I do have to address this "no empty-hand training" business.

Black Knife, didn't we cover your recurring, un-informed bad-mouthing problem just last year?



To set the record straight, Atienza/Sayoc does train empty hands. In fact, our entire Knife Receiver curriculum is empty-hand. In addition to the Receiver curriculum there is:

• Panantukan
• Sipa-Sikaran
• Guard 5
• Lakad
• Receiver Sets
• Disruptions
• Power-Striking
• More!

BTW, This quote is the best!



If you go back to those forum threads where you claimed we "don't spar" you'll re-discover our stick-grappling video where one sparring session ends in a triangle choke LOL!



The fact is, Black Knife, you have NOT really seen Sayoc/Atienza.

Anyone who knows the Atienzas' background, growing up in Jamaica, Queens, would find the assertion that they have no empty-hand pretty funny.

And I don't really care to........you go on and keep believing the hype. You will never convince me that that stuff is useful.

[CWL]

You go back to your training & muscle memory when under stress. This guy only knew how to apply finishing moves, so he had already killed the bouncer before his knife even made contact.

[jnperrings]

And I don't really care to........you go on and keep believing the hype. You will never convince me that that stuff is useful.

No problem. We're not trying to convince you.

Presumably, since you have now admitted that you haven't seen/trained Sayoc/Atienza, you will stop spreading uninformed opinions about it.

[Black Knife]

No problem. We're not trying to convince you.

Presumably, since you have now admitted that you haven't seen/trained Sayoc/Atienza, you will stop spreading uninformed opinions about it.

They are my opinions and no one is going to stop me from making them. I don't need to have train in Sayoc to know it will never work. Just watch the video I posted and it says it all. Look at what they are teaching for empty hand defense against a blade. That would never in a real life attack. Also look at the rigs you guys wear. Now what the hell is that for. Who in the hell carries that many knives around out in the real world. You keep up the good work and keep on training in that stuff and let me know when you get to use it in real life.

[tltt]

If the knife was a Police model, then this is another example of how non-knife people exaggerate descriptions of knives. The Police's blade is, I believe, 4 1/8" long, not 6".

Jim

I've seen various descriptions of the knife, years ago some said it was a Cold Steel Vaquero Grande, which does jive with it being 6" and serrated. The Atienza Kali folks were friendly with Lynn Thompson, so it makes a little sense.

[killgar]

They are my opinions and no one is going to stop me from making them. I don't need to have train in Sayoc to know it will never work. Just watch the video I posted and it says it all. Look at what they are teaching for empty hand defense against a blade. That would never in a real life attack. Also look at the rigs you guys wear. Now what the hell is that for. Who in the hell carries that many knives around out in the real world. You keep up the good work and keep on training in that stuff and let me know when you get to use it in real life.

That looked more like "knife ballet" than self-defense. It's scary to think that people are teaching such things for actuall street defense.

But of course, that is just one video. I won't judge an entire martial art by one video. I hope it's not an accurate portrayl of what is being taught to people who desire actual defensive skills.

Just my opinion.

[HeavyHanded]

That looked more like "knife ballet" than self-defense. It's scary to think that people are teaching such things for actuall street defense.

But of course, that is just one video. I won't judge an entire martial art by one video. I hope it's not an accurate portrayl of what is being taught to people who desire actual defensive skills.

Just my opinion.

My sentiments as well, but what's up with all the trainers? Looks more like sensitivity and mechanics drills rather than technique.

Here's a different open handed Kali video I found - much more in line with what I was exposed to, esp the bit starting at just past 2 minutes in - more of mix of FMA and boxing with some solid forearm stuff thrown in

[SeaxyBeast]

That looked more like "knife ballet" than self-defense. It's scary to think that people are teaching such things for actuall street defense.

It's also a drill. If Sayoc is anything like the system in which I train these drills are used as a sort of scaffolding. You do them not to learn self-defense, but to support learning the structures you do need to learn to defend yourself. Once the real skills, (taught as you break down and push the 'rules' of the drill), are in place you dismantle the scaffolding and use the structure that is left. As long as the student knows that a drill is a game and gets enough reality to sort the riding from the training wheels I don't see anything wrong with this. It's the difference between swimming lessons and being tossed in the pool.

I've met several Sayoc guys with formidable skills and have seen no reason to criticize them based on their training exercises.

[jungman]

I've never studied with Carl Atienza. I had the chance for a single day in my area but had another commitment. Hindsight, I probably should have paid the $$$ and swapped activities just so I could have first hand knowledge.

Somebody I know did go to the event. I had the same question on the knife rig as what black knife had asked.

The response that I got back then was it was a training vehicle. Most folks carry folders only and in one of their front pockets. But what about small of back? Or folks with LBE and have them strapped on their chest during duty? ... etc .. It helps teach you the initial striking from deploying from different positions and also helps the defender recognize more knife draws. That's the response my acquaintance got for the rig.

I can't really comment on the video, because it's only a minute long and is unlikely therefore really to be enough to judge a system on. Looks like a drill versus a technique.

Some folks don't like Hubud/Lubud and don't think it's useful. From my experience, I think it's *PHENOMENAL* for quickly getting some hand/eye coordination and speed developed. When I did an impact weapon class with a seasoned instructor, he wasn't able to get a hold of my Kubotan as every time he went to grab it I either parried the hand with my live hand or struck him with the kubotan. I feel the repeated and rapid motions of drills like hubud give me an edge when it comes to seeing an attack and responding. If you don't know what you are looking at when you see Hubud, it can kind of look like patt-a-cake. It would be pretty easy to scoff at. When tried and applied, I find it useful (but your mileage can/will vary)

[Entropy_]

And I don't really care to..

Awesome...thank you for admitting to all the people on the forum (present and future) that you have never trained in Sayoc or Atienza...doesn't take much to formulate uniformed opinions as you have clearly demonstrated here and in other forums. Sure you can keep forming them and further demonstrate your lack of knowledge...people will keep reading your uninformed opinions seeing through your weak arguments...and Sayoc/Atienza will keep quoting you verbatim, differentiating yourself from thousands of satisfied clients/customers.

You will never convince me that that stuff is useful.

Is this posted to try and sway people that we initiated some sort of dialogue with you to do so? If you look back on the thread, as well as previous forums, you attempt to stand on the shoulders of the Sayoc/Atienza organizations, putting them down for your own personal gains. Are you insecure or missing something with your training? You brought us up in a negative light in previous posted forums as well, which are more than a year old! You keep bringing us up trying to discredit our training (without ever having trained in Sayoc or Atienza yourself)...clearly you are threatened with our organizations...perhaps it's our training methodologies? Our teaching methodologies? or perhaps the people we train?

Their empty hand stuff is not effective for real fighting.

I love this one! First, this is of course based on your extensive training in Sayoc and Atienza right...oh wait, see above. Second, BJ Penn; LL Cool J; & Frank Mir to name a few; as well as all the LEO's and elite Military units we train may disagree with you...but I suppose your uniformed opinion has more weight then the experience of any one of the above names or associations? BTW, what is your background/experience? Do you have any ring stats; videos; or anyone, who is someone, that can vouch for what you have done? Many Sayoc and Atienza instructors have been or currently still are bouncers all over the world relying on their empty hand skills to protect themselves; their patrons; and their fellow bouncers from gun violence and knife violence EVERY week!! We have 1000's of stories for validation of empty hand skills learned from Sayoc and Atienza from all of our instructors worldwide...and this doesn't count the number of LEO's and Military that train with STG and are out there saving lives and protecting this country EVERY day...they would also find this assertion comical and sad! Again...what is your experience......

I can't see these fat guys from Sayoc Kali move more than a few seconds without having to take a break

Many Sayoc and Atienza instructors are actually pretty involved with fitness; We have CrossFit instructors; LEO; Military...etc. I myself own a Fitness Gym (Urban Jungle) and am a Triathlete having completed multiple triathlons of varying distance, including 1/2 Ironman and Full Ironman. What is your fitness background? I have seen many Sayoc Instructors move against real ARMED opponents and have all come out on top. The implication that fitness is a pre-requisite for surviving an edged weapon encounter speaks directly to your inexperience...we are not talking about putting on goggles and going toe to toe on a mat in some air conditioned studio in some sort of sparring match. It's also very telling how you were spouting many of these uninformed opinions more than a year ago and still haven't sought out more training to at least validate your own arguments...I suppose truth isn't really a factor with your own training? Please keep talking so people can keep reading and we have even more information about your lack of training!

Regards,

Joshua Votaw
Atienza Kali Full Instructor
TrainUrbanJungle.com

[Edwood7]

Well i see this tread has side tracked a bit.
A few things I would like to add.

I myself got my first introduction to the basics of Sayoc indirectly by a few friends from the US Navy, edged weapons work tailored to the needs of urban operations (the even showed us a few tactics with the tomahawk that I have never seen any were). It was an eye opener and made me look for more edged weapon training.

Most of what I learned was straight forward knife work form these guys, but when I got to go to a few seminars and civilian schools I found it to be very different and noting like the straight forward work I had learned.
One thing I know a lot of people complain about is the multiple knife rigs they use in Sayoc. I myself do find these types of rigs useful for learning how to carry and deploy a knife and to create muscle memory, the problem I have with it is the amount of knives carried on them. If you’re training for the reality of carrying a knife, way carry some many during your training when in reality you won’t be carrying around all does blades. It’s like combat gun training using two shoulder rigs, two leg holsters, and to hip holsters.

After a lot of negative opinions I received from ex-students and fellow Leo and military friends I just decided it was not for me. What I learned and still practice from what is the tactical wing of sayoc is something a respect a lot and to this day go back to in some of the training I do but that’s pretty much were my study in Sayoc ended.

Then there are thise types of things you find along the way that make you think.

Christopher Sayoc is a world renowned expert in edged weapons and tactics.His families ancestry in the Filipino Martial Arts can be traced back over 5 generations! But it is not just his Sayoc lineage that makes him a true virtuosoin the Filipino martial arts.From the age of 3 ,Tuhon Sayoc had a facination with knives.As a child of 6 years olD,he had begun to exoperiment with projectile weaponry.He was already familiar with both the spin and the flight trajectory patterns that different weapons produced.By the age of 12,he was already training and engaging in live weapon drills with,at that time were considered the world's leading Filipino experts in edged weaponry.AT AGE 15 ,TUHON SAYOC HAD ALREADY COMBAT TESTED HIS TRAINING IN NUMEROUS LIVE BLADE CONFRONTATIONS!And, was teaching many highly experienced martial artists more than twice his age.It wasin his late teens that he felt the need to bring his families art,and hisown expertise to an even higher level . HE THEN CONSULTED WITH HIS UNCLE,A WELL KNOWN AND RESPECTED SECURITY CONSULTANT IN THE pHILLIPINES,WHO IS ALSO KNOWN AS ONE OF THE WORLDS LEADING EXPERTS IN THE FIELD OF SECURITY.FROM THAT POINT ONtUHON sAYOC'S LIFE WAS CHANGED FOREVER.AS AN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY OPERATIVE,HIS LIFE AND IDENTITY WERE CONCEALED EVEN FROM HIS OWN FAMILY.FOR MANY YEARS NO ONE KNEW HIS WHEREABOUTS OR OBJECTIVES.IN FACT, MANY PEOPLE DOUBTED HIS EXISTANCE AND BELIEVED HE WAS KILLED IN A FOREIGN MILITARY OPERATION. IT WAS ONLY RECENTLY THAT HE SURFACED,AND IS READY TO INTRODUCE TO THE WORLD,THE SECRETS OF HIS FAMILIES ART,SAYOC KALI.the art of the blade. A man that brings four generations worth of edged weapons knowledge to the table combined with COUNTLESS SUCCESSSFUL LIVE BLADE COMPLEX ENGAGEMENTS.Come to a Sayoc Kali seminar with Tuhon Christopher Sayoc Sr ,and experience the true essence of the phiillpines-land of the brave and unconquerable."

I have never met Christopher Sayoc, but i have seen these flyers out there. I dont know if he has ever responded to the questions this raises.

[treehopr]

He was not justified to use a knife for this type of situation. That is the problem with the weapons only systems they don't teach people how to use empty hand techniques and students will always resort to a weapon because that is what they train with all the time. You use a weapon as a last resort when you try other means first. If a guy is choking your friend you can easily choke him as well but since he trained in Atienza Kali, which they don't teach empty hand fighting, he resorted to the only option he had in is bag of tricks and now it is going to cost him big time. I say he gets found guilty and gets 25 years to life.

People should not always rely on weapons instead get some training on how to fight using your personal body weapons. Look also at what happened to Zimmerman. He is fucked all because he was scared to fight a teenager and went to his gun right away and now he will spend a long time in prison fighting off black inmates who will try to kill him for sure.

I'm surprised by the lack of logic in this, you're saying that the people (who were armed) in the 2 examples you described should have had better empty hand skills?

Wouldn't it make more sense if the 2 people who were unarmed had better counter-weapons training? It seems to me if some mugger were to attack me with a blade, the responsibility would be on me to either counter with a better weapon or have some wicked empty hands vs. blade training rather than expecting the mugger to have better empty hand skills...

Based on a quick google search, the bouncer who was stabbed was 6'6" and weighed 365 lbs, the person who stabbed him was 5'7" and 140lbs. It seems like you're suggesting that the guy who was 140lbs should have tried to choke a guy who was almost a foot taller than he was and and a 225 lb weight advantage.

None of the guys I know who've worked security (not just bouncers but also EP and PSD) guys would voluntarily go hands on with a guy without another person backing them up. The defendant stated that he was coming to the aid of his friend who was being choked, put yourself in that situation- a dimly lit bar, a 365 lb dude holding your friend up by the neck and choking him, would you really decide to try and jump up and choke the bouncer??

The guy may have ended up in jail but he may also have saved his friend's life in the process. I think it says more about the bouncer's lack of training and teamwork than it does about how "untrained" the 140lb guy was.

[treehopr]

I would vote not guilty too. However, the jury convicted him of first-degree manslaughter. The judge sentenced him to 17 years in prison . His last appeal was denied in 2008. I believe the knife that was used was a Spyderco police model with a full serrated blade. This is what the trial judge had say to about the knife,"The deadliest knife I've ever seen in a court room. There can be no other purpose (for the knife) but to injure or kill somebody." You got to love those NY judges. We thought we had it bad, out in Cali.

A key point, NYC does not look kindly on people protecting themselves which is why they have such restrictive gun and knife laws.

Even if the guy had been completely justified in the use of the blade they still would have gone after him on having possession of the blade.

It's the same reason that the NYC knife show eventually moved to New Jersey; the concern that the police were going after blade collectors for "possession of dangerous weapons" despite the fact that knife (and gun) collectors are some of the most law abiding people around.

I'm actually surprised that the defense team didn't try to get a change of venue for the trial...

[neverforget]

I have studied kali when I was in the service in Panama, when that guy cut him in the leg, he knew what he was doing !!

[jnperrings]

They are my opinions and no one is going to stop me from making them. I don't need to have train in Sayoc to know it will never work. Just watch the video I posted and it says it all. Look at what they are teaching for empty hand defense against a blade. That would never in a real life attack.

For a self-appointed expert, I'm surprised at how much you already know about something you've never trained. How many other things have you not trained that you know won't work? Do you use the same method to decide on what *will* work? Your students (do you have any?) are lucky to have an instructor who is so diligent in his quest for the truth.

Also look at the rigs you guys wear. Now what the hell is that for. Who in the hell carries that many knives around out in the real world.

The "blade rig" is a *training tool,* the application of which is so obvious that our military clients see the immediate transferability to holstering blades on their kit.

Do you walk around "in the real world" wearing your jiu jitsu gi? Maybe some boxing gloves or striking mits? I said the same thing to you the last time you decided to let the world know you don't know anything about Sayoc/Atienza.

You keep up the good work and keep on training in that stuff and let me know when you get to use it in real life.

This is me letting you know that Sayoc/Atienza training has already saved the lives of many people from LEO/Military to bar bouncers.

That looked more like "knife ballet" than self-defense. It's scary to think that people are teaching such things for actuall street defense.

But of course, that is just one video. I won't judge an entire martial art by one video. I hope it's not an accurate portrayl of what is being taught to people who desire actual defensive skills.

Just my opinion.

It is an 'accurate portrayal' of an instructional dvd. The dvd that introduces the Transition Drill framework to the new student. Hopefully, it doesn't need to be said that it would be detrimental to the viewing student if they could only see everything run at full speed.

One of the important concepts of Transition Drills is "one-for-one" training. Each person gets the same amount of movement in any given period of time. This is why the drills look like a 'ballet' to you at learning speed. They both are practicing each getting one movement in one 'beat' of time. This as opposed to the 'defender,' for example, getting in a parry plus 3 or 4 strikes as a counter to a single attack. This is important because as you up the speed and intensity, it becomes clear that moving 3-4 times faster than your opponent is not realistic.

My sentiments as well, but what's up with all the trainers? Looks more like sensitivity and mechanics drills rather than technique.

Here's a different open handed Kali video I found - much more in line with what I was exposed to, esp the bit starting at just past 2 minutes in - more of mix of FMA and boxing with some solid forearm stuff thrown in

It *is* sensitivity and mechanics - and also technique. How do you work technique in bjj, for instance? You get on the mat do correct reps. How do you learn sensitivity around that technique? You get on the mat and rep it correctly in different scenarios and variations.

Now, how do you even know about the technique in the first place? Your instructor shows it to you by demonstrating the technique. Usually at a much slower speed that what it would look like in application. How is this any different?

That video you posted has some cool stuff, but they are doing drills - just like the above Sayoc video Black Knife posted is a drill. The only difference with the one you posted is that they have already learned the drill and have done a lot of reps - so they can now do the drill faster.

Here's another look at the same drill (Transition 1) being taught at a faster speed.



There are differences in promotional video vs. instructional video.

It's also a drill. If Sayoc is anything like the system in which I train these drills are used as a sort of scaffolding. You do them not to learn self-defense, but to support learning the structures you do need to learn to defend yourself. Once the real skills, (taught as you break down and push the 'rules' of the drill), are in place you dismantle the scaffolding and use the structure that is left. As long as the student knows that a drill is a game and gets enough reality to sort the riding from the training wheels I don't see anything wrong with this. It's the difference between swimming lessons and being tossed in the pool.

I've met several Sayoc guys with formidable skills and have seen no reason to criticize them based on their training exercises.

^^ What he said

[Black Knife]

Awesome...thank you for admitting to all the people on the forum (present and future) that you have never trained in Sayoc or Atienza...doesn't take much to formulate uniformed opinions as you have clearly demonstrated here and in other forums. Sure you can keep forming them and further demonstrate your lack of knowledge...people will keep reading your uninformed opinions seeing through your weak arguments...and Sayoc/Atienza will keep quoting you verbatim, differentiating yourself from thousands of satisfied clients/customers.



Is this posted to try and sway people that we initiated some sort of dialogue with you to do so? If you look back on the thread, as well as previous forums, you attempt to stand on the shoulders of the Sayoc/Atienza organizations, putting them down for your own personal gains. Are you insecure or missing something with your training? You brought us up in a negative light in previous posted forums as well, which are more than a year old! You keep bringing us up trying to discredit our training (without ever having trained in Sayoc or Atienza yourself)...clearly you are threatened with our organizations...perhaps it's our training methodologies? Our teaching methodologies? or perhaps the people we train?



I love this one! First, this is of course based on your extensive training in Sayoc and Atienza right...oh wait, see above. Second, BJ Penn; LL Cool J; & Frank Mir to name a few; as well as all the LEO's and elite Military units we train may disagree with you...but I suppose your uniformed opinion has more weight then the experience of any one of the above names or associations? BTW, what is your background/experience? Do you have any ring stats; videos; or anyone, who is someone, that can vouch for what you have done? Many Sayoc and Atienza instructors have been or currently still are bouncers all over the world relying on their empty hand skills to protect themselves; their patrons; and their fellow bouncers from gun violence and knife violence EVERY week!! We have 1000's of stories for validation of empty hand skills learned from Sayoc and Atienza from all of our instructors worldwide...and this doesn't count the number of LEO's and Military that train with STG and are out there saving lives and protecting this country EVERY day...they would also find this assertion comical and sad! Again...what is your experience......



Many Sayoc and Atienza instructors are actually pretty involved with fitness; We have CrossFit instructors; LEO; Military...etc. I myself own a Fitness Gym (Urban Jungle) and am a Triathlete having completed multiple triathlons of varying distance, including 1/2 Ironman and Full Ironman. What is your fitness background? I have seen many Sayoc Instructors move against real ARMED opponents and have all come out on top. The implication that fitness is a pre-requisite for surviving an edged weapon encounter speaks directly to your inexperience...we are not talking about putting on goggles and going toe to toe on a mat in some air conditioned studio in some sort of sparring match. It's also very telling how you were spouting many of these uninformed opinions more than a year ago and still haven't sought out more training to at least validate your own arguments...I suppose truth isn't really a factor with your own training? Please keep talking so people can keep reading and we have even more information about your lack of training!

Regards,

Joshua Votaw
Atienza Kali Full Instructor
TrainUrbanJungle.com

Just because a person is fit does not mean they can fight so bringing that up was useless. Oh and how come you have to mention that LEO's and military personnel train in Satoc/Atienza kali. Is that supposed to mean something? As a former cop and Marine I don't see how that is supposed to impress me. Shit I know a bunch of cops and military guys that train in other arts but it does not make what they are learning perfect or effective. I don't believe the hype guy!