0560 elmax ??

[kimberfan]

And I'm still failing to see your point?
Besides that, ELMAX has not been easier for me to sharpen than S35VN.

Elmax is far easier that SR-101/52100 to sharpen IMO and is insanely tough, i work on a farm and have been known to chip VG-10 and ATS-34 with ease, heck the other day i chipped out my cpm-154 blur, doing the same things Elmax just rolls and can be stropped lightly with green compound back to shaving sharp

that being said my CPM-154 blur is now my "kitchen knife" as the hollow grind works wonders in there and my 560 is my go to blade with a swamp rat RMD for anything too big for it

[rockspyder]

I suppose the greatest thing I've enjoyed with ELMAX is the fact that it responds to my ultra-fine Hand American kitchen steel very much like a non-stainless does. Other high carbon stainless steels seem to work-harden very quickly when burnished, and will begin to lose the edges to chipping after burnishing (nothing catastrophic just noticeable shiny spots on the edge when shined under a light) whereas ELMAX seems to be ductile enough, even at high hardness, to just keep getting realigned back to hair-flinging sharpness without the need to abrade much steel off via actual sharpening. I've been using my 560 for EVERYTHING and finally had to actually pull some steel off a few weeks ago to get the edge back into fighting trim. With the sheer amount of cutting I've been doing, however, it really is fairly remarkable. Less than a minute spent on a kitchen steel after using the knife just keeps it going and going and going.

THAT is why alloy toughness is a boon in a folder or anything else--it's something that users of carbon-steel slipjoint pocket knives have understood for years, even in the absence of batoning through logs or chopping bones.. Unless you're doing nothing but cutting seriously abrasive media all the time, your loss of sharpness likely is not a result of the edge actually being worn/ground down very much, but rather getting crushed/pushed a tad bit out of shape. A ductile steel can be pushed back into shape without becoming brittle, where the 154CMs and BG-42s of the world don't respond nearly as well to it.

The jury is still out, as far as I'm concerned. My initial experience with ELMAX is nothing like this; however, after I had to put my own edge on it, it seems to be holding it better than the factory edge. Maybe. It certainly did ok after cutting a little abrasive corrugated cardboard today. It still shaves hair.

[CrimsonTideShooter]

Toughness or ease of sharpening? Ease of sharpening IS very subjective, but when the ease of sharpening of one person is across many different alloys of steel (and heat treatments), then the relative ease of sharpening cannot be negated. As for toughness, won't disagree, that is a matter of chemistry and physics. But in a blade the size of the 560, IMO, and yes, it is just an opinion, the difference in toughness between ELMAX and, say, lowly 440C is largely moot. Step up to simply
a fixed blade, and it becomes much more important.

Having a blade of ELMAX, as well as blades of many other steels, I cannot and would not recommend a person buy a knife based purely on its blade being made of ELMAX. Even by KAI, who I think do a great job of heat treating steels.

Exactly! That's where ELMAX shines. Is it just as tough as the toughest of stainless steels, yet it has great edge retention relative to most other steels. I don't see why that's so hard to understand.

[rockspyder]

Exactly! That's where ELMAX shines. Is it just as tough as the toughest of stainless steels, yet it has great edge retention relative to most other steels. I don't see why that's so hard to understand.

It is not hard to understand at all. It IS hard to say that I've seen it, and it is hard to see that it is important in a knife like the 560. Except in the way that t1mpani mentions, which I have not seen the ELMAX in my 560 exhibit. But, like I then later posted, with the edge I put on it, it seems to be showing a much better edge-holding ability. Not sure why, because I would expect it to have the best edge from ZT...

[CrimsonTideShooter]

It is not hard to understand at all. It IS hard to say that I've seen it, and it is hard to see that it is important in a knife like the 560. Except in the way that t1mpani mentions, which I have not seen the ELMAX in my 560 exhibit. But, like I then later posted, with the edge I put on it, it seems to be showing a much better edge-holding ability. Not sure why, because I would expect it to have the best edge from ZT...

Often times the initial edge bevel put on by the factory is "burnt." Meaning they over heated the edge weakening the steel at the very apex. Normally one or two sharpenings has it gone, but that does account for some of the poor performance a lot of people see in factory edges.

I was talking to a custom maker that made it sound like this was a big problem. Maybe the factory was using worn out belts, or maybe it was a novice sharpener - but somehow a lot of edges come out "burnt." That could definitely be what you were experiencing.

[rockspyder]

Could have been burnt... Could have been a novice sharpener that didn't get it quite right. I didn't have to do MUCH, once I moved to the brown stones (ceramic). I'd be more inclined to believe it was a novice sharpener, and not totally burnt. I've had one burned, brittle edge before, in carbon steel, and this was different. More like it just needed a good touchup. Which was disappointing me with the steel, until now that it seems that it is holding my edge better.

[ETA] thanks for your patience in the discussion. I never set out to "dis" ELMAX... Just wasn't seeing the stellar performance... Before. Now, I'm hoping I am starting to...

[t1mpani]

Well, and I've been around far too long to become a hysterical steel fanboy, by which I mean that it wouldn't bother me at all if you HAD decided to dis ELMAX. Choirs of angels don't start singing when I use it, and the highest compliment I've paid it is that it is a high-chromium steel that behaves more like old, boring, low-chromium steels that have been out for years than many others of its ilk. I wasn't seeking to argue with you, just contribute my own experiences to the discussion. For general use, my favorite steel of all time is still W2. ...and no, choirs don't sing when I use it either.

[knifenut1013]

It is not hard to understand at all. It IS hard to say that I've seen it, and it is hard to see that it is important in a knife like the 560. Except in the way that t1mpani mentions, which I have not seen the ELMAX in my 560 exhibit. But, like I then later posted, with the edge I put on it, it seems to be showing a much better edge-holding ability. Not sure why, because I would expect it to have the best edge from ZT...

Factory edges are set in place so you are not left with a ton of grinding to make it useable. It is a great misconception to think they are the best. Most of your edge retention problems likely come from the edge not being sharpened properly.

[The Mastiff]

Yeah, I'll take W2 over pretty much any stainless unless it's my Phil Wilson S110V at rc 63.5 .

Elmax impressed me for the grain structure and cleanness it showed. It gave/gives me some really nice edges. While trying it out for the first time I took it up to 8, to 9k with varying diamond strops. I found no inclusions, voids or any problems within the steel itself. It took a great high sharpness edge and kept it for a while. It has good edge stability for a steel in it's category.

It's not my favorite steel in the world. Heck, I don't have a favorite. I can see why people do like it. I have it in a mule, and 3 different Kershaws ( sold a 4th) and it seems pretty consistent so far. Judging by the formula and numbers put out by the foundry I would like to try it up around full hardness . It should do fine in a EDC type folder .

Joe