Help Identifying an old Kris

[eman13]

I found this at an antique store, and by the looks of it it is an old Kris, possibly from the Philippines, and maybe even Damascus steel. Any help IDing this thing would be fantastic. I am hoping it is old world Damascus, but know that it isn't likely to find the real stuff. This will live as a display piece, and I may give the blade a light coat of mineral oil to protect it from rust.
Thanks!
Ian

Blade in sheath

Blade

Grain of metal

Grain of the metal from a different spot

Handle up close

[Thomas Linton]

As "Damascus" steel apparently originated in the India subcontinent, it is not surprising that making blades of layers of different metals should occur in the area of Indonesia, starting centuries ago. That's about as "old world" as it gets and quite "real."

The "real" experts will show up and give you the details.

Oh, it's not unusual to see newer handles/scabbards joined with old blades.

[CWL]

The carving on the wood looks fresh and without any wear or aging, I doubt this is very old. It may be a replacement grip & sheath to the old blade.

Blade looks pretty old & worn (could also be fake aging), but seems real. The quality of the ferrule (pamor?) makes it more likely to be a older blade.

Go ahead and wipe the metal down with an oily rag (any oil designed for steel would work), but don't use any thing that is described to be a polish.

[eman13]

The carving on the wood looks fresh and without any wear or aging, I doubt this is very old. It may be a replacement grip & sheath to the old blade.

Blade looks pretty old & worn (could also be fake aging), but seems real. The quality of the ferrule (pamor?) makes it more likely to be a older blade.

Go ahead and wipe the metal down with an oily rag (any oil designed for steel would work), but don't use any thing that is described to be a polish.

would mineral oil and a soft cloth qualify as safe for the metal?

[Ishrub]

would mineral oil and a soft cloth qualify as safe for the metal?

Unless you think it is overdue for one of these cleansing rituals. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...highlight=Kris

"Oh one more interesting point is that it smells. The blade has a "sweet" aroma to it which I think could be one of two things... the "antique" shop put some sort of perfume on it to "authenticate" it, or from what I read, when made in traditional style the keris is imbued with herbs and other materials as part of a spiritual ritual."

Check this site for an explanation of the cleansing ritual:
http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/muharram.html

And this one for some background on the kris and this specific blade and societal level
http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/keris01.html

Steve S

[eman13]

Unless you think it is overdue for one of these cleansing rituals.

That may be a good idea, but I'll wait and make sure I won't accidentally damage something during the process. The very first step is to disassemble the blade, and I want to be sure I know what I am doing before taking it apart to cleanse it.
Now to find some limes

[Mike Coleman]

Hello Ian, I am by no means an expert on these but this is not from the Philippines and to me looks to be an East Java or Madura Keris.

[CWL]

I also suspect Indonesia because of the straight blade shape with flattened & reinforced spine style. Don't know the name of the style, but it is a common blade profile for Indonesian Keris.

I'm kinda suspecting that this was an old worn-down blade that was "refurbished" and sold into the tourist market. The current wooden furniture looks way too "common" for the quality of the ferrule/pamor on this blade. This knife probably once had a far more ornate sheath & hilt which has either rotted away, or has been salvaged for any precious metals on it.

[Ishrub]

.... The quality of the ferrule (pamor?) makes it more likely to be a older blade....

Apparently 'pamor' is actually the damascus effect due to iron and nickel layers being delineated by acidic etching. It seems the taste for 'pamor' includes display and enhancemant of etching depth

http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/pamor.html

[eman13]

I have been doing a little research and have found out some useful information. I contacted the nice people at Kris Cutlery and they were able to give me some information on its origins:

Dear Ian,

I normally do not id swords because of time constraint. You keris is definitely Sumatran. Difficult to say exactly type of steel used. The blade is worn out due to repeated etching with acid (lime, sour fruits and others). The handle and scabbard are newer than the blade. Good luck!

Regards,
C

Now knowing its land of origin, I decided to see if there were any interesting things on the tang (sometimes a makers mark is on it) so I slid off the handle. It was attached by some strips of bandana (instead of plant epoxy like the traditional method), making me follow the train of thought of CWL that the blade was stripped of its original sheath and hilt, replaced with newer, cheaper pieces. The tang is very gnarled, and I can't make out anything on it, but I put some mineral oil on it and will check again tomorrow.

I also noticed the blade was giving off a fragrance after oiling, a VERY heavy perfume inside the metal from a previous cleansing ritual (I presume).

There is a possible makers mark on the the side of the blade that was not obvious yesterday (mineral oil does wonders!), I will take a few pictures tomorrow of it when I have some sunlight. I will post images of the tang as well if any symbols show up on it tomorrow.

Without the hilt the blade is easier to assess and seems to be very well made, always warm to the touch, and surprisingly light.

[DJD]

These blades are usually unmarked. The blades can be very old, and the mountings can be replaced several times during the life of the keris. They are periodically, ceremonially etched to bring out the pamor. While this is a traditional practice, it is pretty hard on the blades, and over time, and numerous re-etchings, there is often not much left of the original blade. I suppose it could be compared to the Japanese re-polishing their swords. Though a Japanese polish is a more careful, and non-destructive process.

Post your pictures to the following forum. They specialize in the keris and can probably give you more information.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=11

DD

[eman13]

Thanks DD, I have done so and await their responses! I will report back here anything useful I learn if there are any folks curious about this kris.

[CWL]

Sorry for causing confusion, I should have looked-up the parts name than try going from memory. Pamor was the wrong word. I was talking about how ornate the "hilt ring" which is the metal between the blade and wooden hilt. Depending on shape or how it is fitted, it can be called a selut or mendak.. The one on yours looks to have been masterfully made and may have been filigreed at one time with gold. Is it silver?

This is an indication of how ornate and high-quality your blade was before time wore it down.

[eman13]

CWL, It is brass with a thick silver(?) plate, Images will be up soon of it in better detail. It is quite ornate, and doesn't align right with the wooden handle, implying it was for a different hilt. It has a feel of being quite old, but I would rather have a few more opinions on that as well.

[CWL]

Oh yes, the fragrance you are detecting from the metal is Melati oil, which is Jasmine. It is used for treatment of the steel and during the yearly ritualistic cleansing of the blade.

[parbajtor]

When they changed the handle, they mounted the new one upside down.
It's highly likely that this could have been assembled poorly from parts.
How good is the fit in the scabbard? does the knife rattle in the sheath when shook?
These blades were often a kind of san mai construction with wrought iron in the cheeks
Some of the close ups seem to indicate a higher carbon edge was present, but
very little is left from continuous acid etchings which corrodes higher carbon steel quicker .
Sharpening on stones would have removed the wrought as well as the high carbon, preserving the edge.
Here's a nice example of an original
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=sum...9,r:1,s:0,i:73

[eman13]

the sheath fits very well, it is snug and the blade does not rattle. Anyone know where to get melati oil? I also have some better pictures to post probably tonight.

[DJD]

Mineral oil will work just fine. I usually buy baby oil in the grocery store. It works just fine if you don't mind the baby-fresh scent. You could probably soak some flowers in it if you wanted a different flavor.

DD