Did I do the wrong thing?

[RemyKaze]

I wudda done the same thing. I often have a gun in hand( hidden) when I answer unidentified visitors.

This. No harm in being cautious. The only foul I saw was presenting the weapon and escalating the chance of violence.

[Skimo]

Nope, the guy walked in without an invitation. Low crime rates don't mean you are immune to crime.

I'm sure you prefer someone hit/stab/shoot you before you show your weapon.

[odd]

I swiveled my gun out from behind my back and gave him a look at my gun.... I held it down at my side, and turned it so he could see its profile. His eyes bugged out at the sight of my .357.

I may or may not have done the same depending on how "threatened" I felt. I see nothing wrong with being prepared. Although I would not have displayed the weapon as you did, I think I would have kept it out of sight.

[jayinhk]

I agree, I would have asked him to stop where he was and ask him what he wanted with the gun out of sight.

[dalefuller]

I typically greet "unusual" people/situations in this way. I've been the victim of 4 violent encounters at various times in my life (every one of them occured in FL), so I've learned that if something's gonna happen, it's gonna happen fast and without warning... no time to "get prepared" as it's happening. Sometimes I'm wearing the weapon in a holster and it's visible to all. If it's not holstered for some reason, I just stick it in my waistband behind my back. I don't show my weapon unless I think I'm gonna need to use it, but it's there and my hand is on the grip.

I'd also have a polite talk with my wife about hitting the garage door opener without me asking her to.

[HeavyHanded]

I think from the "visitor's" point of view, he might have felt he did have an invitation.

"Is your husband home? I saw a critter moving around over here he might wanna know."

"Yeah, he's right in the garage - I'll get the door."

Door opens, he steps in to talk thinking he's doing the neighborly thing.


But hey, I wasn't there and I have displayed a firearm under equally unclear circumstances...

[RemyKaze]

Nope, the guy walked in without an invitation. Low crime rates don't mean you are immune to crime.

I'm sure you prefer someone hit/stab/shoot you before you show your weapon.

How many times have you had to shoot someone after showing them your weapon first? How many times when you haven't shown your weapon? If you have the weapon in hand behind your back or in your pocket at the ready, and keep your distance, then you're good. Maybe you should practice drawing faster? I dunno. However I do know that when a weapon is presented it makes the situation ten times more tense. The first thing that needs to be done before showing a weapon is to tell the person not to come in any further and to stand outside, obviously. Then if they don't listen, present the weapon. I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do, I'm just saying, like many others, that you shouldn't show that weapon unless there is either some dialogue or obvious intent to harm.

[PropThePolecat]

Jake,

Tell me more about this kid...there had to be some signs, that made your radar go "beep".

How did he identify himself to your wife? When you first saw him, were his hands hidden out of sight? How far apart were you? Did he cross the norm in approaching you, for what is considered socially acceptable? Did he introduce himself? How was his demeanor - was he menacing, threatening, overly (fake) friendly, polite, etc? How did he appear - was he dressed like a thug? Drug addict "skinny"? Was he covered in prison tatoos or did he look like your average high-school student? When he retreated, did he go directly back to your neighbours or did he just vanish into the night? Have you since spoken to your neighbours about him? Do you even have racoons or possums in your area?

Civilians should also follow a continuum of force, and from the way you are describing it, you bypassed all the steps and went directly to your lethal force option, even showing it to the kid, thus making your intentions (to kill him) clear. For comparison, the first step on the ladder would have been to ask him to "Step the f*** out of my garage! "

Had he been who he was saying he was, and had you shot him, then the whole thing would have sucked for both him and you.

In the end, i dont know if you did the right thing or not, because i wasnt there. Im just trying to understand how you percieved the situation in those few seconds the whole thing lasted.

[Gollnick]

Tactically, it's a difficult question and I think not enough information has been given to answer it. The gun is your weapon, your advantage. When you show it in a way as you described, there is a chance that an attacker can react to it in such a way as to rob you of the advantage that it gives you before you have a chance to use that advantage. If he is fast and skilled and depending on the situation, he may disarm you. If he has a gun of his own, perhaps a small gun already palmed in his hand which you haven't seen, he might shoot you faster than you can react. Or he might take cover behind something. In poker, you don't show your hand, you don't reveal what advantage you may have, until the bets are all down. A similar thing can be said for self-defense; it's often best not to show your hand early in the game.

On the other hand, it is a skilled fighter who recognizes that weapons can be used in more than one way. In this case, your gun proved an effective weapon without being shot. The appearance of it was effective enough. One could argue that you made good and effective use of the weapon and the advantage the weapon gave you. Whether or not thi was a good way to use the weapon depends on aspects of the situation which can't be determined from your description such as the distance, the lighting, visibility, what objects were around and between you, etc.

Then there is the legal question. This varies by state. As we have seen recently, Florida has some very permissive laws. What I can tell you is that here in Oregon what you did could be considered "menacing" and would be illegal were you not in your own house. Hypothetically, if a person approaches you on a public street and you show your gun even in a way that only that person can see, that is possibly illegal depending on the overall situation.

Some years ago, I was stopped at a stop light behind several cars when a man walked off the sidewalk and into the street. He approached my car on the passenger side and started to knock on the roof and window. I don't know why. He seemed somewhat "deranged." I drew my gun but was careful to keep it below the window such that nobody else outside could see it but this man standing immediately outside of the car and looking down into the window could see it and see it pointed at him. He did the smart thing and ran off. Nothing more came of the incident. I reholstered the gun being careful to keep in below the window line and went on my way. The appearance of the gun was enough. I used enough of the gun to effectively end the situation. And I didn't feel that using the gun in that way jeopardized the overall advantage it gave me. I also felt that, under that circumstance, it would legally not have been menacing but would have fallen under justified use of force. It was, certainly, though, a use of deadly force, legally.

Similarly, what you did was legally a use of deadly force. Whether or not it was justified legally is a matter of Florida law for you.

[nccole]

Personally I feel you overreacted by displaying the gun. Arming yourself was prudent, showing it with zero exchange of dialog to someone that had announced their presence and had (to that point) done nothing to demonstrate a threat (and was a frequent visitor of your neighbor) was an overreaction even if well within your rights. I wasn't there, don't have any idea what the ambient crime level is in your neighborhood etc. If you live in a rough area then your response might have been appropriate. I don't know what part of Fla you live in, I'd want a head's up if a neighbor saw a Tagu or other.

This is what I felt also. I do not think showing it was necessary. Being ready is necessary, and you would have the upper hand with the element of surprise, but now you either scared a kid (most likely because what kind of person who means harm knocks on the door, greets the weaker person and asks for the stronger person?) or created a potential dangerous situation of retaliation. Most likely you played it safe and scared someone, but you could have just talked to him and showed suspicion, and never led on that you had a weapon, and sent him on his way. Anyway, glad all is ok, and I know things happen fast in the moment and it is not like you can practice situations with the real emotions like that.

[Magnaminous_G]

I would have put my hand out in a "stop" gesture and said, "Stay there. Don't come into my garage. What do you want?"

I would not have pulled my gun, lol.

[mwerner]

Some people, especially the young, are utterly clueless and the late hour and coming unbidden into your area may have had no implications whatever.....
And I agree that a single bad guy intent on stealing or whatever would not likely have announced himself to your wife and allowed himself to be seen...
Still, being prepared is not a bad idea.
I was in bed one night last winter, about midnight, when there was a loud knock on the front door. I don't wear much to bed... I took my .38 and held it behind my leg as I turned on the porch light.... It was one of my colleagues from the county police....There had been a DWI accident out front and he needed to know who owned the parked car the drunk had hit.
I discreetly tossed the pistol onto the bed and pointed out the house....

[svbk556]

As pointed out this is not the forum for this response but here goes... I agree with your base instincts however it sounds like the intruder was well within 21 feet. Should the intruder decide to escalate, a gun deployed from behind your back and pointed away from your target could of had catastrophic results for you and your wife. Have you talked to your neighbors about their friend? Have you had the opportunity to have a stern conversation with your wife about opening doors to strangers at 1145pm? I live in a high crime section of Atlanta and the intruder displayed textbook predator behavior. Food for thought...

Scott

[Jakeboy]

There have been two home invasions, at night (within a quarter of a mile), in the past month. In both cases, the homeowner was killed. I don't know any details beyond this, as nothing has shown up in the local paper since and (presumably), the investigation is ongoing.

I may or may not have acted rashly, but knowing nothing about this "late night" visitor (thanks to my wife), and having less than 5 seconds to react, I chose to grab my revolver and have it in hand. I'm aware of the 21 ft. "radius of danger" when it comes to self defense. LEO's have been killed by knife wielding assailants within this distance, as they did not have the time to draw their weapons.

As the door came up, I didn't immediately recognize the individual. He was dressed like a lot of young people around here and had some visible ink (not a big deal for me), but my initial impression was one of a threat. When he said nothing and took a step into my garage, I moved my gun from behind my back to a position of muzzle down, trigger finger laid along the trigger guard and then rotated my hand 90 degrees to give him a look. My right arm was hanging straight down along my leg (normal standing position).

He was visibly shocked at the sight of my handgun and it was at that time he told me about the raccoon or possum. I did recognize him after a few seconds, but by that time, this had all occurred. Everything happened so fast. If it would have been my neighbor, I would have immediately recognized him and none of this would have occurred.

I then thanked him as he was quickly walking away and said "Sorry". I'm a reasonably fit 59 year old, but have had two surgeries (Neck fuse and rotator cuff) in the past six months (motorcycle mishap), and am still "on the mend", so I'm not exactly capable of fisticuffs or even putting up an effective defense with a knife, right now. My only option is a firearm or nothing at all. I sure as hell wouldn't want to ever take anyone's life if I didn't have to and this incident never got close to anything like that. If this would have taken place during daylight hours, I may have responded differently. I plan on counseling my wife about opening doors to strangers at 11:45 p.m.!

He could have assumed that, by my wife opening the garage door, it was an invitation to enter. I don't know.

I'm going to be turning this one over in my head for a while, in any case. I wish this whole thing never happened.

[willseeyalater]

Funny hour and funny reason to be knocking at your door. My guess is he may have been casing your place. You tipped your cards early. Like has been said a clear verbal directive to state his business followed with a statement about the hour being late would have told him that this house is not an easy mark. Hopefully he won't make up some story about you brandishing a weapon at him and he was five steps the other side of your garage threshold. CCW is a double edged deal, lots can go wrong even when you believe you are clearly following the law, actions made are not undone.

[Olive Tree]

Probably, we have a very different view about this topic since we are from different cultures and we have different back-grounds, but... I think you over-reacted a little. He was just the neighbors' kid and you knew him. I wouldn't have shown the gun, there was no imminent threat of any kind. You just scared the hell out of him.

[The Logical One]

There have been two home invasions, at night (within a quarter of a mile), in the past month. In both cases, the homeowner was killed. I don't know any details beyond this, as nothing has shown up in the local paper since and (presumably), the investigation is ongoing.

I may or may not have acted rashly, but knowing nothing about this "late night" visitor (thanks to my wife), and having less than 5 seconds to react, I chose to grab my revolver and have it in hand. I'm aware of the 21 ft. "radius of danger" when it comes to self defense. LEO's have been killed by knife wielding assailants within this distance, as they did not have the time to draw their weapons.

As the door came up, I didn't immediately recognize the individual. He was dressed like a lot of young people around here and had some visible ink (not a big deal for me), but my initial impression was one of a threat. When he said nothing and took a step into my garage, I moved my gun from behind my back to a position of muzzle down, trigger finger laid along the trigger guard and then rotated my hand 90 degrees to give him a look. My right arm was hanging straight down along my leg (normal standing position).

He was visibly shocked at the sight of my handgun and it was at that time he told me about the raccoon or possum. I did recognize him after a few seconds, but by that time, this had all occurred. Everything happened so fast. If it would have been my neighbor, I would have immediately recognized him and none of this would have occurred.

I then thanked him as he was quickly walking away and said "Sorry". I'm a reasonably fit 59 year old, but have had two surgeries (Neck fuse and rotator cuff) in the past six months (motorcycle mishap), and am still "on the mend", so I'm not exactly capable of fisticuffs or even putting up an effective defense with a knife, right now. My only option is a firearm or nothing at all. I sure as hell wouldn't want to ever take anyone's life if I didn't have to and this incident never got close to anything like that. If this would have taken place during daylight hours, I may have responded differently. I plan on counseling my wife about opening doors to strangers at 11:45 p.m.!

He could have assumed that, by my wife opening the garage door, it was an invitation to enter. I don't know.

I'm going to be turning this one over in my head for a while, in any case. I wish this whole thing never happened.

The guy could have said what he had to say without coming inside the garage. Assuming you have a typical sized garage the distance from outside to where you would have been standing is not a significant amount of distance.

Stepping foot into the "threshold" of the garage is really no different from stepping into the threshold of a front door of a person's house IMO. At least for me it would feel that way.

A lot of people think that home invasions happen with a bunch of heavily armed men in black tactical gear and ski masks like they see in the movies. Often times it's a person or people acting like they have some business with the resident. From what I can assume he probably told your wife about the innocent raccoon/possum story, and then asked, "is your husband home?" to find out who else was in the house. From that point on they go from there.

Criminals prey on the weak and naive, and as I always tell people a lot of them don't have "CRIMINAL" written across their forehead. Many are wolf in sheeps clothing. I am typically your LEAST paranoid type of person, so if I think your situation raised huge red flags.... it probably was a big red flag.

[RemyKaze]

There have been two home invasions, at night (within a quarter of a mile), in the past month. In both cases, the homeowner was killed. I don't know any details beyond this, as nothing has shown up in the local paper since and (presumably), the investigation is ongoing.

I may or may not have acted rashly, but knowing nothing about this "late night" visitor (thanks to my wife), and having less than 5 seconds to react, I chose to grab my revolver and have it in hand. I'm aware of the 21 ft. "radius of danger" when it comes to self defense. LEO's have been killed by knife wielding assailants within this distance, as they did not have the time to draw their weapons.

As the door came up, I didn't immediately recognize the individual. He was dressed like a lot of young people around here and had some visible ink (not a big deal for me), but my initial impression was one of a threat. When he said nothing and took a step into my garage, I moved my gun from behind my back to a position of muzzle down, trigger finger laid along the trigger guard and then rotated my hand 90 degrees to give him a look. My right arm was hanging straight down along my leg (normal standing position).

He was visibly shocked at the sight of my handgun and it was at that time he told me about the raccoon or possum. I did recognize him after a few seconds, but by that time, this had all occurred. Everything happened so fast. If it would have been my neighbor, I would have immediately recognized him and none of this would have occurred.

I then thanked him as he was quickly walking away and said "Sorry". I'm a reasonably fit 59 year old, but have had two surgeries (Neck fuse and rotator cuff) in the past six months (motorcycle mishap), and am still "on the mend", so I'm not exactly capable of fisticuffs or even putting up an effective defense with a knife, right now. My only option is a firearm or nothing at all. I sure as hell wouldn't want to ever take anyone's life if I didn't have to and this incident never got close to anything like that. If this would have taken place during daylight hours, I may have responded differently. I plan on counseling my wife about opening doors to strangers at 11:45 p.m.!

He could have assumed that, by my wife opening the garage door, it was an invitation to enter. I don't know.

I'm going to be turning this one over in my head for a while, in any case. I wish this whole thing never happened.

With the whole two cases of murder within a quarter mile, I'd have to change my opinion on this and say you did exactly the right thing. Out in the country we don't usually go to the door without a gun in the middle of the night. Personally I think your wife should have gotten you to come to the door after telling you what was happening. She really didn't give you the option to think it out beforehand.

[HeavyHanded]

In light of the home invasions, you acted fine. And you did apologize .
I still don't find his actions very suspicious, but some of this falls on him to present the least threatening demeanor considering what's happened in your neighborhood.

[killgar]

For those who say that it's wrong to have a weapon visible on your own property when dealing with a questionable "visitor", what would you suggest for someone who visibly carries a holstered weapon or a fixed-blade while on their own property? Should a person have to HIDE their weapon, on THEIR OWN PROPERTY? And if it's ok to greet a visitor with a visible holstered gun, then why not a gun visible in the waistband, what's the difference? After all, we're not talking about holding it in ones hand or pointing it at the guy. I'm not really looking for advice on this matter, just expressing my disagreement.

I think the OP did the right thing. I've done similar things myself.

As far as strangers coming onto your property, I don't believe in greeting them at gunpoint or with my hand on a gun, gunfighter style, but I also don't believe in giving a stranger the benefit of the doubt. I don't care what time of day it is or what reason a "visitor" gives, if I don't know you, you don't get my trust, and I don't care if that makes me uncivilized.

It's not uncommon for home invaders to use very good reasons to get people to open their doors. "My car broke down and I need to get my girlfriend to her doctors appointment. Can I borrow your phone, my cell phone died?" Now, if the guy was telling the truth and you refused, would that make you a "bad person"? If you open the door to be a "good person" and three armed guys come rushing in to rob you and rape your wife and daughter, and then maybe slit your throats, maybe someone will give you a "Good Citizen" award, posthumously.

And sometimes home invaders use a girl to get you to open your door. Who would refuse to open their door to a young, pretty girl in distress? Never underestimate the scumbags of this world.

Personally, my loved ones safety is paramount. Being a "nice guy" to strangers is of no importance by comparison.

On a related not- I've noticed lately that home invasions are on the increase here in San Diego. Part of the reason for my strong feelings.

Thanks to the OP for sharing. It's a good subject to discuss.