Libre Fighting Knife Assualt Project Part 1 (knife defense, disarm, martial arts

[Black Knife]

Shank proof 3.jpg shank proof 2.jpg

We began our testing this past Saturday and we discovered a few things some good and some bad. We tested using 2 types of scenarios where the attacker attacks with what I call “Rapid Fire Assault” where the attacker stabs hard and fast as possible and does not to stop until the signal was given.

Scenario #1

Defender was placed in a corner with his back up against the wall. The attacker was placed one arms length away with the practice knife in his right hand and with the left leg lead. Once I gave the signal the attacker was to grab the defender by the shirt and stab as fast and hard as possible until told to stop.

Scenario #2

Defender was in the middle of the training room and was in position to defend. The attacker was once again one arms length away with the training blade and right hand with a left leg lead. Once I gave the signal to attack the attacker was once again to grab and stab s hard and fast as possible until told to stop.


Outcome -

At first the defenders were getting stabbed quite a lot in both scenarios then I had all participants practice the Shoulder & Bicep Stop for 20 minutes. After the drilling was complete the number of hits went down but they were still getting stabbed more than I wanted.

After a few minutes of reviewing the video recording I noticed everyone was trying to block while backing up. So I suggested that they don’t back up but instead move toward the attacker. This idea came from my training in the Marine Corps where we learned that you never run from an ambush but attack it so I figured to test this theory with this training.

Once all partied moved forward while blocking the stabbings went down dramatically so I knew we were on to something. The reason it worked was because the forward movement stopped the attacker's motion and he could not reset easily. So I am convinced that SBS blocking can work after some practice.

Now that we discovered the best approach to blocking the stabs we worked on controlling the arm. We worked on this by using the 2 on 1 and it worked as good as I thought it would but we also came up with a new way of controlling the knife arm without sustaining any cuts or stabs and the attacker could not get away either. We tested this a lot and even tested it by wetting the attacker arms with water and the hold still was feasible.


Next Sunday we will be working on defense against slashes from the attackers left side i.e., backhand slashes. I have developed some ideas and will work on it right away. I have been working on this material for quite some time but I just recently was able to get some of my students to help with the testing and now they are pumped to finish on what we started.

All testing was done as realistic as possible and we did have some minor injuries and we even had one of my guys get hit in the throat which dropped him right away. As for what we used for the training knife was something I made. I got a 1 inch rubber water hose and cut a 7 inch piece from it. I capped one end of the hose with duct tape and filled the hose piece with sand. I then capped the other end with duct tape as well and taped the rest of the hose with duct tape. I finished it by applying black electrical tape for a better look. The training knife is firm but it will not puncture the skin but it hurts like hell when stabbed or slashed with it.

Note** -I added a picture on the shoulder & Bicep Stop block just to give everyone and idea on what it looks like. Also added a picture of the 2 on 1 control as well.

[SeaxyBeast]

Thanks for the update. Your training there mirrors what I've been taught pretty well and with similar results (i.e. survivable, but not enjoyable), which is good to know since ours was in a lower intensity environment.

Does bicep and shoulder work well if the defender is giving up a lot of size and mass to the attacker? Is it a strength thing or more leverage and position? How do you pass the weapon as you transition from right-foot lead inside to left-foot lead on the outside?

[HeavyHanded]

Other question - how much did the attackers grip on the clothing effect outcomes? I realize the stop hit pic is just a demo still, but the attackers free hand is not in a control/interference position. I'm certain how well that hand is sunk makes a difference, but I'm not sure how big a factor it plays, esp if there's some hard push/pull to counterbalance his stabs.

SeaxyB, the drills I've done with this seem to make it more of a timing hit - strike that bicep as its coming forward and it'll stop the arm cold even if they guy is larger. Likewise with the shoulder, it doesn't work so well if the shoulder is all the way forward or still chambered as it becomes more of a muscle thing and requires a much better plant with the feet. A stop hit to the bicep doesn't require a lot of power to be effective. When we did drills using a focus mitt over the attacker bicep and hit with relatively full power hooks - it became clear just how damaging this can be if timed well.

In the case of the Libre drill, the attacker never really extended their arm, making it almost a necessity to hit the shoulder as the bicep is always protected somewhat by the knife. And this is where the transition gets interesting - reaching across to apply an arm drag or chopping in with the forearm to get over /to the outside of the attacking arm leaves a high probability of getting cut along the inside of the upper arm unless you have some sort of checking action at his lower arm with your left hand to keep that knife low. I need to dust off the old sparring dummy and take some pics...

[Black Knife]

Thanks for the update. Your training there mirrors what I've been taught pretty well and with similar results (i.e. survivable, but not enjoyable), which is good to know since ours was in a lower intensity environment.

Does bicep and shoulder work well if the defender is giving up a lot of size and mass to the attacker? Is it a strength thing or more leverage and position? How do you pass the weapon as you transition from right-foot lead inside to left-foot lead on the outside?

Good question....from the SBS we went into the 2 on 1 from the front but by accident we went into what I call "Baseball Grip" and this was more effective to get an arm drag which allowed us to get to the 2 on 1 control to the side. If you notice in the picture that the defenders head is placed on the neck of the attacker. This was very painful and allowed us to keep control of the attackers arm. We specifically drilled this to see if there was some way the attacker could break free of the hold and we discovered it was too strong of a hold to break. Also the attacker could not punch with his free arm due to the angle of the control.

Shank proof 1.jpg

[Black Knife]

Thanks for the update. Your training there mirrors what I've been taught pretty well and with similar results (i.e. survivable, but not enjoyable), which is good to know since ours was in a lower intensity environment.

Does bicep and shoulder work well if the defender is giving up a lot of size and mass to the attacker? Is it a strength thing or more leverage and position? How do you pass the weapon as you transition from right-foot lead inside to left-foot lead on the outside?

The SBS, if done correctly is some what painful and after drilling it for a few minutes you will see why. If you step into the strike it stops the attackers arm with no problem. Hitting the bicep hurts and I knew this from the way we block punches in BJJ from the guard. So the size of the attacker has no bearing on the block.

[Black Knife]

Other question - how much did the attackers grip on the clothing effect outcomes? I realize the stop hit pic is just a demo still, but the attackers free hand is not in a control/interference position. I'm certain how well that hand is sunk makes a difference, but I'm not sure how big a factor it plays, esp if there's some hard push/pull to counterbalance his stabs.

SeaxyB, the drills I've done with this seem to make it more of a timing hit - strike that bicep as its coming forward and it'll stop the arm cold even if they guy is larger. Likewise with the shoulder, it doesn't work so well if the shoulder is all the way forward or still chambered as it becomes more of a muscle thing and requires a much better plant with the feet. A stop hit to the bicep doesn't require a lot of power to be effective. When we did drills using a focus mitt over the attacker bicep and hit with relatively full power hooks - it became clear just how damaging this can be if timed well.

In the case of the Libre drill, the attacker never really extended their arm, making it almost a necessity to hit the shoulder as the bicep is always protected somewhat by the knife. And this is where the transition gets interesting - reaching across to apply an arm drag or chopping in with the forearm to get over /to the outside of the attacking arm leaves a high probability of getting cut along the inside of the upper arm unless you have some sort of checking action at his lower arm with your left hand to keep that knife low. I need to dust off the old sparring dummy and take some pics...

Good question......if the attacker's elbow was high then it did make it hard to apply the shoulder block but if the attacker's arm was low then there was no problem. we will be working on a solution this Sunday and I will give you the outcome some time after. I do feel that if a person has a grappling background it is a lot easier to adapt to these types of defense.

[killgar]

Good question....from the SBS we went into the 2 on 1 from the front but by accident we went into what I call "Baseball Grip" and this was more effective to get an arm drag which allowed us to get to the 2 on 1 control to the side. If you notice in the picture that the defenders head is placed on the neck of the attacker. This was very painful and allowed us to keep control of the attackers arm. We specifically drilled this to see if there was some way the attacker could break free of the hold and we discovered it was too strong of a hold to break. Also the attacker could not punch with his free arm due to the angle of the control.

Shank proof 1.jpg

Not to quibble, but in that pic it looks like the attacker could easily punch the defender in the face or jam his thumb in the defenders eye. I'm not saying it would be a full power punch, but it doesn't take much force to break a nose or cause serious trauma to an eye. The defenders face is right there and openly exposed.

Also, in regards to using water to simulate sweat, I commend the effort towards realism, but plain water is not only less slippery than sweat, but it can actually make skin MORE grippy by washing away skin oil. Real sweat contains oil, and that makes it slippery. Maybe something like cooking spray would produce a better simulation. At the very least, if a person can effectively perform an arm grab when the arm is coated in cooking spray, then that would certainly lend credence to the effectiveness of the tactic.

Are the defenders told in advance how they will be attacked or does it come as a surprise like it likely might in the real world? I think that when people know that they are going to be attacked, and know exactly what form that attack will take, that they possess an unrealalistic advantage. My idea would be, spend time instructing the students in various tactics, then take a break, have lunch, etc, and while a student is relaxed an off-guard, casually walk up to them and attack them with total surprise. Then evaluate their response.

[Black Knife]

Not to quibble, but in that pic it looks like the attacker could easily punch the defender in the face or jam his thumb in the defenders eye. I'm not saying it would be a full power punch, but it doesn't take much force to break a nose or cause serious trauma to an eye. The defenders face is right there and openly exposed.

Also, in regards to using water to simulate sweat, I commend the effort towards realism, but plain water is not only less slippery than sweat, but it can actually make skin MORE grippy by washing away skin oil. Real sweat contains oil, and that makes it slippery. Maybe something like cooking spray would produce a better simulation. At the very least, if a person can effectively perform an arm grab when the arm is coated in cooking spray, then that would certainly lend credence to the effectiveness of the tactic.

Are the defenders told in advance how they will be attacked or does it come as a surprise like it likely might in the real world? I think that when people know that they are going to be attacked, and know exactly what form that attack will take, that they possess an unrealalistic advantage. My idea would be, spend time instructing the students in various tactics, then take a break, have lunch, etc, and while a student is relaxed an off-guard, casually walk up to them and attack them with total surprise. Then evaluate their response.

With the angle and pressure on the shoulder of the knife arm there is no way the attacker could even reach the defenders face. Also if the defender goes down to a lower stance the pressure on the attacker's shoulder causes him to go to his knees to avoid the pain. The attackers were instructed to attack anywhere they wanted except the face because of no head gear. Due to tense workout everyone was sweaty so there is no issue there.

Note**- The picture was taken so it can be seen what is done in the movement and it was not taken during an actual sparring session.

[SeaxyBeast]

With the angle and pressure on the shoulder of the knife arm there is no way the attacker could even reach the defenders face. Also if the defender goes down to a lower stance the pressure on the attacker's shoulder causes him to go to his knees to avoid the pain.

Just want to add that you can feel the attacker is trying to reach across by the way the shoulder moves so there should be some advanced warning. It also seems to me that when the attacker shifts focus to the off hand you can usually feel a loss of pressure in the blade hand and get a lock/hold that much easier, especially if your center is lower. Did this seem to be the case in your drills as well?

[Black Knife]

Just want to add that you can feel the attacker is trying to reach across by the way the shoulder moves so there should be some advanced warning. It also seems to me that when the attacker shifts focus to the off hand you can usually feel a loss of pressure in the blade hand and get a lock/hold that much easier, especially if your center is lower. Did this seem to be the case in your drills as well?

You definitely can feel what he is going to do and when he stops trying to pull his arm free the arm drag works perfect for a side 2 on 1 control right to a take down with a lot of pressure on the arm like an arm bar. This happened many times and almost had one guy pop his elbow.

Like I said in my earlier post......all the participants involved in the testing are students of mine and most of them have 2 or more years of BJJ training under me and a few even have a wrestling background so the grappling that is included in these techniques were easily pulled off because of it. I am not saying that if a person does not have a grappling background that they would not be able to learn this material. I am just saying that is made the testing process much more easier and we were able to come up with solutions a lot faster.

[SeaxyBeast]

No, that's right. I've got no BJJ experience and had only as much wrestling experience as any kid who got a bit of it in gym class but it didn't take more than a handful of training sessions before I could feel that shift in intentions as a beginner -- and I'm a slow learner when it comes to martial arts stuff.

[Black Knife]

No, that's right. I've got no BJJ experience and had only as much wrestling experience as any kid who got a bit of it in gym class but it didn't take more than a handful of training sessions before I could feel that shift in intentions as a beginner -- and I'm a slow learner when it comes to martial arts stuff.

Yeah I am sure anyone can learn it.....just like anything else we just have to TRAIN to get it down. SB I ma not sure but if you are from the OC meaning Orange County, California you should come down one Sunday and train with us for the day.

[SeaxyBeast]

I'm in Irvine, so not very far away. Would be very cool to swing by sometime and I appreciate the offer, but you should probably know ahead of time that I have a hard time making it to my own groups weekend events. Too many things going on.

I should probably make it to one of their event weekends before I visit your group or they'll think I'm a deadbeat. Not that I can argue with that.

[Black Knife]

I'm in Irvine, so not very far away. Would be very cool to swing by sometime and I appreciate the offer, but you should probably know ahead of time that I have a hard time making it to my own groups weekend events. Too many things going on.

I should probably make it to one of their event weekends before I visit your group or they'll think I'm a deadbeat. Not that I can argue with that.

Well when you decide to come down just give a heads up

[mercop]

All right, Mercop, you've sold me. How do private citizens on the East Coast get ahold of this program?

Please e-mail at mercop27@gmail.com- George

[Goosey]

This is why I always raise my eyebrows when people say a knife is really not much use as a weapon... the knights of yore didnt wear suits of armour and chain mail because it helped them stay cool and mobile.

Hmmmm

Seems like the only way for me to avoid being killed is to don a riveted mail undershirt...

[stickwhistler]

Edwood7
Has any more work/research been done on this scenario?

There is no more information on the Libre youtube pages,
and I am interested in 'what happened next'.

FYI, William E. Fairbairn found similar results 70-ish years ago, and gave the advice - RUN.

Late in his career, during an interview, Fairbairn was asked about defending against a knife while unarmed:
Fairbairn had only two suggestions:
A. “RUN!”
B. "With a lighting-like kick of either foot, kick him in the testicles or stomach."
But when my brother asked him to demonstrate this move,
"Willie never even got up from his desk. He just said, 'You missed the phrase “lighting-like.” I don't do “lighting-like” anymore.'"
From The First Commando Knives by Prof. Kelly Yeaton, Lt. Col. Samuel Yeaton (USMC) and Col. Rex Applegate

[mercop]

Back to the reality that you will probably not see the knife you are cut or stabbed with. Training predicated on seeing the weapon is like trying to ID an insect before swatting it away from your face.- George