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Thread: Notches on liners of new brown Paramilitary - normal or imperfections?

  1. #21

    finest Spyderco I have thus far.


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    Just wanted to say that mine came in virtually tip-top condition, including these notches that are reminiscent of plastic sprue marks. It doesn't bother me. It's my first knife from Golden, the first where I didn't feel a need to sand down edges or the spyderhole, and first with a totally symmetrically ground blade edge. I am floored by the F&F of this knife.

    While we're nitpicking, one set of jimping is inconsistently cut on mine (it doesn't bother me), and Spyderco clips always come pre-installed, so one side of the handle is basically already shiny under the clip in its default location, which may or may not be my preference (this bothered me slightly, but then I carried the knife and I believe it has been polished somewhat after a few days).

  2. #22
    Wow! Very OCD there, I have 16 para2s and I just found out that they all have them. It doesn't bother me though since the knife performs like a champ.

  3. #23
    Ok. I have to "chime " in here.

    I understand the Spyderco fanboy stomping here. I happen to love Spydercos myself. In fact you wouldnt believe what I just spent to get a FG C95 Manix. Really you wouldnt believe it. That being said I am trying to understand the macho responses of "hey it cuts doesnt it" and "If you want custom quality get a Sebenza cry baby" .

    I see the pics above of a Tenacious and a Manix side by side. one has polished/finished scales the other does not. one is made in elsewhere the other in Golden if I am correct?

    so what are we really talking about here? Knife performance and Spyderco disclaimers or the fact that other countries can produce a knife that surpasses Golden CO Spydies in fit and finish because of what exactly? I ask this because I see these threads again and again and they never seem to get beyond a bunch of guys bullying the thread originator into shutting up.

    Why can Tawian or China or Seki city continue to produce great knives with fantastic fit anf finish for the money and Golden Co USA Earth seems to be hit or miss cathc as you can . in all seriousness we need to ask ourselves why we here in America are continuously getting our asses handed to us in manufacturing these days. I understand Americans have a "standard of living" that far exceeds other countries that use virtual slave labor. I understand you are paying for an American workers health insurance and pension when you buy American. But if we still cant produce a consistant quality product even at twice the cost then we have a big problem here.

    You look at those liners in the above posted pics and explain that to me. I sit here and look at mey Seki City G10 Endura and my Golden CO Manix C95 and ask myself "whats wrong with this picture"

    and onec again please understand I am not bashing Spyderco but asking why are we making macho excuses here instead of really looking at ourselves here in the US and how to solve this and get back ontop in the world arena.

    and i will pay 2-3 times as much for made in America but i expect said product to be on par with the rest of the world at a minimum.

    go ahead a rip me a new one now but it wont stop me from asking what the hell is going on in America not just Spyderco .

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by litetube View Post
    Why can Tawian or China or Seki city continue to produce great knives with fantastic fit anf finish for the money and Golden Co USA Earth seems to be hit or miss cathc as you can . in all seriousness we need to ask ourselves why we here in America are continuously getting our asses handed to us in manufacturing these days. I understand Americans have a "standard of living" that far exceeds other countries that use virtual slave labor. I understand you are paying for an American workers health insurance and pension when you buy American. But if we still cant produce a consistant quality product even at twice the cost then we have a big problem here.
    Reminds me of the current Olympic uniform kerfuffle from Ralph Lauren. The comments are that they had to go offshore to get the quality of the uniforms they wanted. The ability to produce great textiles and sewing in that companys view is not found in the US anymore.

    I find the quality on the Taichung spyderco's to be flawless and the golden colorado to be usually flawless. I did have a grind on my PM2 orange that was a tick off at the choil but fixed it on my sharpener. Despite the small blemish that was easily fixed when sharpening this is my favorite knife. It did not arrive flawless but the flaw was easily corrected by anyone with a sharpening device.
    Last edited by Fat Goat Forge; 07-13-2012 at 11:12 PM.

  5. #25
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    My sage 1 isn't flawless, but it is excellent. Don't have a golden knife (yet) to compare it to.

  6. #26
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    I noticed the same notches on my Para2 when it came in, but after a thread and a few posts later; I found out that they were part of the machining process.

  7. #27
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    Yes it's normal.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by litetube View Post
    Ok. I have to "chime " in here.

    I understand the Spyderco fanboy stomping here. I happen to love Spydercos myself. In fact you wouldnt believe what I just spent to get a FG C95 Manix. Really you wouldnt believe it. That being said I am trying to understand the macho responses of "hey it cuts doesnt it" and "If you want custom quality get a Sebenza cry baby" .

    I see the pics above of a Tenacious and a Manix side by side. one has polished/finished scales the other does not. one is made in elsewhere the other in Golden if I am correct?

    so what are we really talking about here? Knife performance and Spyderco disclaimers or the fact that other countries can produce a knife that surpasses Golden CO Spydies in fit and finish because of what exactly? I ask this because I see these threads again and again and they never seem to get beyond a bunch of guys bullying the thread originator into shutting up.

    Why can Tawian or China or Seki city continue to produce great knives with fantastic fit anf finish for the money and Golden Co USA Earth seems to be hit or miss cathc as you can . in all seriousness we need to ask ourselves why we here in America are continuously getting our asses handed to us in manufacturing these days. I understand Americans have a "standard of living" that far exceeds other countries that use virtual slave labor. I understand you are paying for an American workers health insurance and pension when you buy American. But if we still cant produce a consistant quality product even at twice the cost then we have a big problem here.

    You look at those liners in the above posted pics and explain that to me. I sit here and look at mey Seki City G10 Endura and my Golden CO Manix C95 and ask myself "whats wrong with this picture"

    and onec again please understand I am not bashing Spyderco but asking why are we making macho excuses here instead of really looking at ourselves here in the US and how to solve this and get back ontop in the world arena.

    and i will pay 2-3 times as much for made in America but i expect said product to be on par with the rest of the world at a minimum.

    go ahead a rip me a new one now but it wont stop me from asking what the hell is going on in America not just Spyderco .
    +1 billion.

    Why is it that it's "normal" for an imperfection like this? I never said it doesn't cut well. It does. It cuts better than any production knife I've bought. Push cutting paper made me giggle. Only perfection makes me giggle.

    If I just wanted a knife to cut well I would have paid $75, not $135. This isn't that hard of a manufacturing problem to fix. So what if they have to pay a human for 5 minutes to polish up a cut. I'd be glad to pay it. I shouldn't have to pay $400 to get it. If China or Taiwan can do it, why can't USA?

    I want to have the knife in my hand be from the USA.

    I ordered a pair of "Made in The USA" jeans a little while ago. They didn't fill my order until I reminded them, and then they had threads hanging out.

    The clothes I get from Patagonia aren't made in USA and are usually flawless.

    My wife didn't like her original wedding dress and so she looked for another that could be high quality and fast. China. Perfect quality, stunning, and ready within a week.

    Neither of my telecom companies is capable of giving me a straight answer.

    USPS can't deliver on time.

    The USA company that someone mentioned as being "Gold Class" (Benchmade) had their website down when I wanted to see what they had available.

    My local stores can't do special orders without me reminding them.

    See a pattern?

    WTF. I know I'm picky, but we shouldn't be accepting this level of service. We are all capable of doing better. WTF!!!?!?!?! Who is John Galt?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjay View Post
    Wow! Very OCD there, I have 16 para2s and I just found out that they all have them. It doesn't bother me though since the knife performs like a champ.
    Sixteen Para2 knives eh? Isn't that sort of the kettle calling the pot black?

    Quote Originally Posted by litetube View Post
    Ok. I have to "chime " in here.

    I understand the Spyderco fanboy stomping here. I happen to love Spydercos myself. In fact you wouldnt believe what I just spent to get a FG C95 Manix. Really you wouldnt believe it. That being said I am trying to understand the macho responses of "hey it cuts doesnt it" and "If you want custom quality get a Sebenza cry baby" .

    I see the pics above of a Tenacious and a Manix side by side. one has polished/finished scales the other does not. one is made in elsewhere the other in Golden if I am correct?

    so what are we really talking about here? Knife performance and Spyderco disclaimers or the fact that other countries can produce a knife that surpasses Golden CO Spydies in fit and finish because of what exactly? I ask this because I see these threads again and again and they never seem to get beyond a bunch of guys bullying the thread originator into shutting up.

    Why can Tawian or China or Seki city continue to produce great knives with fantastic fit anf finish for the money and Golden Co USA Earth seems to be hit or miss cathc as you can . in all seriousness we need to ask ourselves why we here in America are continuously getting our asses handed to us in manufacturing these days. I understand Americans have a "standard of living" that far exceeds other countries that use virtual slave labor. I understand you are paying for an American workers health insurance and pension when you buy American. But if we still cant produce a consistant quality product even at twice the cost then we have a big problem here.

    You look at those liners in the above posted pics and explain that to me. I sit here and look at mey Seki City G10 Endura and my Golden CO Manix C95 and ask myself "whats wrong with this picture"

    and onec again please understand I am not bashing Spyderco but asking why are we making macho excuses here instead of really looking at ourselves here in the US and how to solve this and get back ontop in the world arena.

    and i will pay 2-3 times as much for made in America but i expect said product to be on par with the rest of the world at a minimum.

    go ahead a rip me a new one now but it wont stop me from asking what the hell is going on in America not just Spyderco .
    Golden is quite capable of turning out a 'world class' product. I just picked up a Native 5 and the fit 'n finish is superb, so I know it can be done.




  10. #30
    What do you mean? Sorry, English is not my first language. If you were saying why I have 16 of them then it's because of all the sprints, I got multiples of the regular production ones and sprints as pre-need replacements since all mine are users.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjay View Post
    What do you mean? Sorry, English is not my first language. If you were saying why I have 16 of them then it's because of all the sprints, I got multiples of the regular production ones and sprints as pre-need replacements since all mine are users.
    No problem with the English. I was suggesting that collecting 16 of the same model knife, could be seen as being OCD as well.




  12. #32
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    I absolutely believe Spyderco's USA builders could build their knives as flawless as the best Taiwan made Spyderco's, but that's just not the point with most of the USA Spydies. They seem to be the more "user", tough, tactical Spyderco's. They use good materials and are generally very good fit and finish, but not perfect. They're not the line of Spydies that are meant to be perfect, they're the more of a tough and quality work/tactical knife. The very highly polished, high F&F models come from Taichung, Taiwan. That's pretty much where all of the "premium" models come from, the ones that use things like carbon fiber, titanium, good steels, and have very good fit and finish. I'm positive Spyderco could build those same "premium" models, like the Sage 1 and 2 or the Gayle Bradley, in the USA with the same level of fit and finish, but they'd be much more pricey. You also pay around the same price or usually more for those premium models as you do for a usual USA model, like a PM2, Millie, or Manix. That's because spending that much time on F&F is expensive and Spyderco wants to bring us very high quality models like that for a high value. On the other hand, you can get more of a "user" knife built in the USA which still won't be cheap, but will be a great design with great materials, just not as highly "polished".

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDude View Post
    WTF. I know I'm picky, but we shouldn't be accepting this level of service. We are all capable of doing better. WTF!!!?!?!?! Who is John Galt?
    In some of the reporting of the discussions of the Olympic uniforms for the US team donated by Ralph Lauren going offshore more for quality than cost reasons it came out that the big dollars are earned in the design marketing distribution and retailing of an item. Not the production and the shipping to the US which have very narrow profit margins.

    I applauld Spyderco for keeping production in Colorado for many items and don't mind a lesser degree of Fit and Finish if it is a cost control measure. I guess the real debate is could, given a higher cost, american workers do the quality of offshore workers or are we losing production to overseas because they are still willing to work with their hands. I know in my own horseshoeing business I just cant get young people to work hard in a hands on environment. If as I fear our young people wont work with their hands it makes sense to do the high value stuff (design, marketing, retailing) here and export the low value production to locations where people like those jobs.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDude View Post
    +1 billion.

    Why is it that it's "normal" for an imperfection like this? I never said it doesn't cut well. It does. It cuts better than any production knife I've bought. Push cutting paper made me giggle. Only perfection makes me giggle.

    If I just wanted a knife to cut well I would have paid $75, not $135. This isn't that hard of a manufacturing problem to fix. So what if they have to pay a human for 5 minutes to polish up a cut. I'd be glad to pay it. I shouldn't have to pay $400 to get it. If China or Taiwan can do it, why can't USA?

    I want to have the knife in my hand be from the USA.

    I ordered a pair of "Made in The USA" jeans a little while ago. They didn't fill my order until I reminded them, and then they had threads hanging out.

    The clothes I get from Patagonia aren't made in USA and are usually flawless.

    My wife didn't like her original wedding dress and so she looked for another that could be high quality and fast. China. Perfect quality, stunning, and ready within a week.

    Neither of my telecom companies is capable of giving me a straight answer.

    USPS can't deliver on time.

    The USA company that someone mentioned as being "Gold Class" (Benchmade) had their website down when I wanted to see what they had available.

    My local stores can't do special orders without me reminding them.

    See a pattern?

    WTF. I know I'm picky, but we shouldn't be accepting this level of service. We are all capable of doing better. WTF!!!?!?!?! Who is John Galt?
    The point that you are missing is that this is not an imperfection. It appears om every Para2 as a part of the manufacturing process. Spyderco is not perfect and definitely ships bum knives now and then, but your complaint is simply off-target.

  15. #35
    We are still "capable " of the very best in the USA. I think the Spyderco's from Golden are a great knife for the money they could do a little better on the scale to liner interface but other wise they are a great value.

    I would rather the Premium line be made here in some ways but, ultimately I love the fact that IMO there best users, the Manix and Military lines are available to our troops,first responders, and blue collar workers for a great price made here in the best country on the earth
    A couple times this year I've thought about pulling the trigger on a Hinderer or maybe a CR but I'm not a collector and these are not art to me they're tools.

    Now I'm not trying to bully anyone into accepting poor quality because some extra attention to detail wouldn't hurt. I for one am more than satisfied with all my Spyderco's
    BTW on a side note I think it's very cool that the Manix2 is getting a S30v upgrade without a price increase. I would also like to add that If Sal want's a second factory that BMW, Boeing, Amazon etc have moved to South Carolina for a reason. Anytime your ready were up for kicking some Taichung ass down here

  16. #36
    i hope spyderco doesn't attempt to "fix" this "issue" as it will only make the knives less of a value over inane bs...

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by litetube View Post
    so what are we really talking about here? Knife performance and Spyderco disclaimers or the fact that other countries can produce a knife that surpasses Golden CO Spydies in fit and finish because of what exactly? I ask this because I see these threads again and again and they never seem to get beyond a bunch of guys bullying the thread originator into shutting up.

    Why can Tawian or China or Seki city continue to produce great knives with fantastic fit anf finish for the money and Golden Co USA Earth seems to be hit or miss cathc as you can . in all seriousness we need to ask ourselves why we here in America are continuously getting our asses handed to us in manufacturing these days. I understand Americans have a "standard of living" that far exceeds other countries that use virtual slave labor. I understand you are paying for an American workers health insurance and pension when you buy American. But if we still cant produce a consistant quality product even at twice the cost then we have a big problem here.

    and onec again please understand I am not bashing Spyderco but asking why are we making macho excuses here instead of really looking at ourselves here in the US and how to solve this and get back ontop in the world arena.

    and i will pay 2-3 times as much for made in America but i expect said product to be on par with the rest of the world at a minimum.

    go ahead a rip me a new one now but it wont stop me from asking what the hell is going on in America not just Spyderco .
    Listen, I do not try to "rip" anyone a new one. What I've posted is addressing what I believe to be unrealistic expectations. If you disagree with what I have said, that's fine. But I am not being rude or "bullying" anyone within this thread. Now, I want to address some of the points you have made.

    You ask how is it that Golden, CO cannot produce as high quality knives as other knife makers in other countries. I think you answered your question in large part by bringing up labor cost in conjunction with the high standard of living in the U.S. I think your comment hits something that is often overlooked. We like to believe that as Americans, we are the best. I mean, we have the best technology at our fingertips and the best and brightest, right? Often, that is not completely true. We have talented, hard-working, intelligent people but so do a LOT of other countries. And it is very likely that they can outperform us. The Moki and Taichung makers may just have more talented people who are far more critical and skilled along more steps of the production process than what is at Golden. There is no way to know for sure, unless you actually visit and observe all the makers.

    The comment you made about producing a good product at twice the cost is another important thing to consider. The rate of inflation, currency exchange, labor cost and so on, are major factors in determining quality, price and quantity. I am no business/economic expert and respect Sal for taking the time to try and explain those major considerations to us from time to time. In the end, I think Americans are slightly delusional as to what the cost of making an incredibly superior product totally in the U.S. would be. We are so spoiled by the low prices of a globablized market, which enables our high standard of living, that we get severe sticker shock and scoff in annoyance when a Sebenza sells for $300 to $400. But that's the reality of truly buying "American."

    I think where you are coming from is that since the Para costs so much more than a Tenacious, then it should be as good quality as the latter. This is a common-sense and reasonable expectation. However, it does not take into account all the complaints that some Tenacious owners have laid forth over the years of blemished specimens. It also does not take into account Spyderco's constant innovation and expansion of its Golden manufacturing plant. When things are constantly in flux, and new materials and processes are introduced, it is incredibly difficult to avoid small mistakes (which aesthetic blemishes are). If Spyderco had been producing the Para 2 for several years and there was a major problem with the knife, then I could completely understand the OP's complaints. But that's not the reality. The OP bought a knife that has a TINY blemish that in NO way hinders performance nor mars the overall clean appearance. To spot that issue with the nested liners, you need to flip it over and examine it closely. I'm sorry but for the Para 2's price point and intended use, that is ridiculous.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mc556 View Post
    We are still "capable " of the very best in the USA. I think the Spyderco's from Golden are a great knife for the money they could do a little better on the scale to liner interface but other wise they are a great value.

    I would rather the Premium line be made here in some ways but, ultimately I love the fact that IMO there best users, the Manix and Military lines are available to our troops,first responders, and blue collar workers for a great price made here in the best country on the earth
    A couple times this year I've thought about pulling the trigger on a Hinderer or maybe a CR but I'm not a collector and these are not art to me they're tools.

    Now I'm not trying to bully anyone into accepting poor quality because some extra attention to detail wouldn't hurt. I for one am more than satisfied with all my Spyderco's
    BTW on a side note I think it's very cool that the Manix2 is getting a S30v upgrade without a price increase. I would also like to add that If Sal want's a second factory that BMW, Boeing, Amazon etc have moved to South Carolina for a reason. Anytime your ready were up for kicking some Taichung ass down here
    That's rather big headed & narrow minded of you to go claiming "the best country on earth".

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDude View Post
    No, I'm not being sarcastic. I buy quality products not only because they work well but also because they are works of manufacturing art. I was looking forward to the nested liners because I know they are harder to manufacture because the tolerances have to be so tight.

    I tried to check out Benchmade's gold class but their website is down.

    I guess I'm a bit OCD but it pays off as a software developer :-)
    I know how you feel, I found the grind on my Para2 to be 0.00001mm wider near the choil.
    Spyderco also claimed the Para2 has a weight of 106g, mine weighed in at 105.935g - I feel like I've been ripped off!
    I'm amazed at these imperfections in this $150 "art".

    I need to console myself in my $900 Hinderer.......ah, machine marks in the lock bar cut out!!!!

  20. #40
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    Mine has the same thing. Not a big deal IMO.

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