You didn't do that

[jdm61]

I would love to see the numbers of how many Wal Marts have closed up like you say. If a town goes away, it is not because the local dress shop got run out by Sam Walton and company. It is because nobody wants to live there anymore. As for Mom and Pop being all that the town had before Wal Mart, it sounds to me like the residents of said town found Mom and Pop wanting. Are you saying that we should "preserve" high prices and inconvenience for the sake of nostalgia? I find it incredibly amusing and ironic that many on the American Left propose just such things when that is MOST not-lefty. Progressives are supposed to want progress......well, except when it benefits evil capitalists and consumers and validates the socio-economic theories of their opponents.

Mom and Pop's are all the town has. Walmart comes in. Mom and Pops can't compete, close up shop and leave the area, thus reducing the population of the town. Walmart's customer base drops below acceptable levels. Walmart moves out. Mom and Pops gone, Walmart gone, Ghost town.

[jdm61]

Possibly you are right, perception is everything. In my mind buying cheap chinese crap three times vs buying a quality product once isn't much of a discount. Likewise, I've noted that there are simply things you can't get there anymore, and their prices aren't even the knockout that they used to be. We find that we purchase more and more items at Target and Publix because the prices are close (or better) but the quality is much better. The pendulum swings and I think that Walmart is slowly becoming K-Mart. Something else will come along (or maybe already has) it always does.

Ah, Publix and Target, both of which have grow at incredible rates at the expense of Mom and Pop........and Sear, K-Mart and a bunch of grocery stores. You know that Publix got it's start as one of the the smaller of the chains in Florida, right?

[timcsaw]

I would love to see the numbers of how many Wal Marts have closed up like you say. If a town goes away, it is not because the local dress shop got run out by Sam Walton and company. It is because nobody wants to live there anymore. As for Mom and Pop being all that the town had before Wal Mart, it sounds to me like the residents of said town found Mom and Pop wanting. Are you saying that we should "preserve" high prices and inconvenience for the sake of nostalgia? I find it incredibly amusing and ironic that many on the American Left propose just such things when that is MOST not-lefty. Progressives are supposed to want progress......well, except when it benefits evil capitalists and consumers and validates the socio-economic theories of their opponents.

Based on my reading, a Walmart can have some positive results or negative one's dependent on many factors... to me it seems like larger communities handle it better than smaller ones. Vermont, IIRC is one state that's tried to keep them out (I think there are only 4 in the whole state). Don't get me wrong, I do shop at Walmart (and my son works there), but if I can buy my ammo at the Mom & Pop for just a few cent's more than at Walmart, I'll go with Mom & Pop.

It's been a long time since I did much reading on the subject, "Walmart kills towns", but I do remember the name Hearne, Texas as one that got ghosted.

[jdm61]

Why don't you try and find out what the primary business in Hearne, Texas was. NOT the retailers, but the primary employer that permitted people to make a living in Hearne and shop with those retailers. People LEAVING small town America and moving to the cities is what cause most of that "damage." The really interesting part is that a number of these "ghosted" towns are being resettled by new immigrants from places like Latin America and India and this is starting to happen even in "ghosted" urban areas like Dayton, Ohio.

Based on my reading, a Walmart can have some positive results or negative one's dependent on many factors... to me it seems like larger communities handle it better than smaller ones. Vermont, IIRC is one state that's tried to keep them out (I think there are only 4 in the whole state). Don't get me wrong, I do shop at Walmart (and my son works there), but if I can buy my ammo at the Mom & Pop for just a few cent's more than at Walmart, I'll go with Mom & Pop.

It's been a long time since I did much reading on the subject, "Walmart kills towns", but I do remember the name Hearne, Texas as one that got ghosted.

[eyeeatingfish]

Why don't you try and find out what the primary business in Hearne, Texas was. NOT the retailers, but the primary employer that permitted people to make a living in Hearne and shop with those retailers. People LEAVING small town America and moving to the cities is what cause most of that "damage." The really interesting part is that a number of these "ghosted" towns are being resettled by new immigrants from places like Latin America and India and this is starting to happen even in "ghosted" urban areas like Dayton, Ohio.

People leave not because they want to leave but because there are not enough jobs.

The problem as I see it is not Walmart but the consumers. They would rather have many many possessions regardless of quality instead of a few quality possessions. Thus they support Walmart and their made in China (or wherever) items. Walmart just feeds the masses, we are the ones shooting ourselves in the foot when we shop there.
Heck I am even guilty of this sometimes probably, though for the record I usually only buy USA knives unless it is made in another country because of a particular prestige or type that country has. MAny japanese knives for example are not made there because companies here can outsource jobs and have a cheaper product, they are made there because Japanese make good knives.

Another side effect I have been contemplating but not sure if it holds true is the wages of mom and pop vs Walmart. Perhaps in the older days of industry, manufacturing, and retail, a person could earn a good living for a whole family so that one parent could stay at home but now with Walmart and mass market minimum wages jobs now both parents need to go to work and the family suffers. I don't know if wages from 30, 40, 50 years ago support this theory or not though. Anyone a bit older than me remember this?

[timcsaw]

Why don't you try and find out what the primary business in Hearne, Texas was. NOT the retailers, but the primary employer that permitted people to make a living in Hearne and shop with those retailers. People LEAVING small town America and moving to the cities is what cause most of that "damage." The really interesting part is that a number of these "ghosted" towns are being resettled by new immigrants from places like Latin America and India and this is starting to happen even in "ghosted" urban areas like Dayton, Ohio.

It's been a while so I don't recall if there was a significant employer other than the local retailers who went out of business. I don't think there was, but I'll have to look into it. Seems though, (from my old memory) that as the local retailers went down (along with their jobs), the town thinned out and eventually Walmart wasn't taking in what they needed to stay solvent so they closed up shop also. Mom & Pops closed, employees had to leave, and then Walmart was all that remained and then they closed... dead town.

Here are story about it from the day (1990);

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/14/us...exas-town.html

[jdm61]

Story says that Mom and Pop were not the big local employers. Union Pacific, the tank car yard and the plumbing fixture company were and they went away. So this was 22 years ago and Wal Mart had closed 6 stores out of over 1500. Not exactly a very good statistical sample for proving the theory that Wal Mart kills towns.

It's been a while so I don't recall if there was a significant employer other than the local retailers who went out of business. I don't think there was, but I'll have to look into it. Seems though, (from my old memory) that as the local retailers went down (along with their jobs), the town thinned out and eventually Walmart wasn't taking in what they needed to stay solvent so they closed up shop also. Mom & Pops closed, employees had to leave, and then Walmart was all that remained and then they closed... dead town.

Here are story about it from the day (1990);

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/14/us...exas-town.html

[timcsaw]

Story says that Mom and Pop were not the big local employers. Union Pacific, the tank car yard and the plumbing fixture company were and they went away. So this was 22 years ago and Wal Mart had closed 6 stores out of over 1500. Not exactly a very good statistical sample for proving the theory that Wal Mart kills towns.

I suppose that if the Walmart stays open the town will survive. **It'll just be different.

What Happens When Wal-Mart Comes to Town: An
Empirical Analysis of the Discount Retailing Industry

This paper develops an empirical model to assess the impact of chain stores on the profitability
and entry/exit decisions of discount retailers and to quantify the size of the scale
economies within a chain. The model has two key features. First, it allows for flexible competition
patterns among all players. Second, for chains, it incorporates the scale economies
that arise from operating multiple stores in nearby regions. In doing so, the model relaxes
the commonly used assumption that entry in different markets is independent. The paper
finds that Wal-Mart’s expansion from the late 1980s to the late 1990s explains about forty
to fifty percent of the net change in the number of small discount retailers, and a similar
percentage for all other discount stores. Scale economies were important for Wal-Mart, but
less so for Kmart, and the magnitude did not grow proportionately with the chains’ sizes.
Finally, direct government subsidies to either chains or small retailers are unlikely to be
effective in increasing the number of firms or the level of employment.

**The town will just be... "different". Mom-N-Pop's Hardware can't compete with Walmart so out they go to be replaced by Mom-N-Pop's Vegan Internet Café!!

WVU Prof says Wal-mart [Sobel] doesn’t hurt, help small business

Russell Sobel acknowledges that when Wal-Mart comes to town, “Mom and Pop” stores that sell similar merchandise are often squeezed out of the market, but he said these empty storefronts make room for other types of small businesses. In economic terms, Sobel said this is an example of “creative destruction.”

“When Wal-Mart came to town, we lost a lot of stuff in downtown Morgantown; things shut down, but by five years later, stuff had opened up in their place. We got antique stores, and a couple fancy restaurants, and some coffee shops, and a law office,” Sobel said.

It could be argued that those establishments don’t fill the need that the now gone hardware store and office supply store did, but Sobel’s focus was on the overall impact on small business.

[jdm61]

Now here is the big question. Why did Wal Mart and, to a lesser extent, Target become the "killer of small business" AT THE EXPENSE of companies like K-Mart, Sears, JC Penney, etc.? Wal Mart was not the first big chain. They just did it better. You could ask the same question regarding how Dillards grew so much at the expense of other higher end retailers and why darn near everything that isn't called Dillards now seems to be called Macy's? Target and Dillards are probably more responsible for the trouble that Sears and Penny's have had than Wal Mart. Why are we not crying about how Home Depot and Lowes destroyed not only the local lumber yard, but also companies like Scotty's, Lindsley Lumber, 84 Lumber, and even K-Mart's attempt at that biz, Builder's Square?

[timcsaw]

Now here is the big question. Why did Wal Mart and, to a lesser extent, Target become the "killer of small business" AT THE EXPENSE of companies like K-Mart, Sears, JC Penney, etc.? Wal Mart was not the first big chain. They just did it better. You could ask the same question regarding how Dillards grew so much at the expense of other higher end retailers and why darn near everything that isn't called Dillards now seems to be called Macy's? Target and Dillards are probably more responsible for the trouble that Sears and Penny's have had than Wal Mart. Why are we not crying about how Home Depot and Lowes destroyed not only the local lumber yard, but also companies like Scotty's, Lindsley Lumber, 84 Lumber, and even K-Mart's attempt at that biz, Builder's Square?

This makes a good point - "They just did it better." - which in some ways, follows the reality that a 30.06 is more effective to kill a deer than is a .22 round.. I remember reading about the trouble Sears & R. faced when they started opening "Catalog Stores" out in smaller communities... It was expected to hurt existing businesses and Sears faced some heat about it. I don't think it had the same effect that the big-box stores do though, because people like to "feel what they buy" at Mom-N-Pops.

Personally, I like to go to my local family owned (for 3 generations) gun store to spend my money. "Steve" is behind the counter and he'll have more knowledge and expertise than most anyone I'd find behind the counter at Walmart. Steve can stop and talk to you about his products, or shoot the bull in general. Steve will also have what I'm looking to buy 90% of the time where Walmart is out.

We had a small Walmart Super center move in to a neighboring town a few years ago, and as far as I know, it hasn't affected other businesses negativity in most cases. I think that a large "Shaws" grocery store probably took a hit, but they are still doing well because they DO have what Walmart is out of stock on. Most people I've ever talked to about the WM have said that their major complaint is it being out of stock on what they want to purchase there... but I think that may be a local management issue.

Interestingly, I know of many NH Walmarts that are built in towns on the border to VT and many folks from VT come over to shop. VT is still really resistant to Walmart (4 in the entire state) so the company found another way to skin that cat because them VT folks are a bunch of hippy-type hill billy's. (just kidding you VT people... Peace, love, dove and all that )

[jdm61]

Why should we care if old fashioned business models are pushed out by new and more efficient ones? To me, this is like pining for a Harley and paying twice as much for one even though they have been neither cutting edge or, IMO relevant since at least the 60's and arguably a bit earlier than that.

[timcsaw]

Why should we care if old fashioned business models are pushed out by new and more efficient ones? To me, this is like pining for a Harley and paying twice as much for one even though they have been neither cutting edge or, IMO relevant since at least the 60's and arguably a bit earlier than that.

I take it you don't carry any "old timey" style slip joints?

For me, I like to have many different baskets for all my eggs, even at the expense of some efficiency... and a master of none is often the result of a Jack of all trades. I guess I just like a wider variety of options.

[Triton]

Ah, Publix and Target, both of which have grow at incredible rates at the expense of Mom and Pop........and Sear, K-Mart and a bunch of grocery stores. You know that Publix got it's start as one of the the smaller of the chains in Florida, right?

Sure, I've got no problem with chain stores, just a problem with Walmart.

[jdm61]

And I ask again why? About the only thing that you can say about Wal Mart is that they are the biggest.

Sure, I've got no problem with chain stores, just a problem with Walmart.

[Triton]

And I ask again why? About the only thing that you can say about Wal Mart is that they are the biggest.

As I mentioned I don't like their quality and I don't like their service and I don't like their prices. I don't have anything against Walmart philisophically, I just don't like their stores and prefer to shop elsewhere.

[elkins45]

Following the President's logic, we must immediately indict him for the Aurora, Colorado shootings.

Why? For the sake of logical consistency. If the government (Obama) can take credit for the success of businesses because the government facilitated the infrastructure, then isn't it logical that they must take the blame for the atrocities the very same infrastructure helped facilitate? Surely Holmes could have never made it to the theater that night if the government hadn't built and maintained the roads and bridges he used to drive there. Funny how no one seems to be rushing to take credit for the downside.

Who wants to own the utter destruction of the work ethic in Appalachia from decades of government handouts? "You didn't build that meth trade on your own---somebody else made that happen" Yep, and his name was LBJ (and Jimmy, and Bill, and now Barack).

[jdm61]

More like the destruction of an entire culture and the local pols are as much if not more to blame than anybody in DC.

Following the President's logic, we must immediately indict him for the Aurora, Colorado shootings.

Why? For the sake of logical consistency. If the government (Obama) can take credit for the success of businesses because the government facilitated the infrastructure, then isn't it logical that they must take the blame for the atrocities the very same infrastructure helped facilitate? Surely Holmes could have never made it to the theater that night if the government hadn't built and maintained the roads and bridges he used to drive there. Funny how no one seems to be rushing to take credit for the downside.

Who wants to own the utter destruction of the work ethic in Appalachia from decades of government handouts? "You didn't build that meth trade on your own---somebody else made that happen" Yep, and his name was LBJ (and Jimmy, and Bill, and now Barack).

[ooitzoo]

Perhaps he did not mean this statement to be turned into an accusation of "so it's the people's money as much as if not more than yours, Mr. Business Man.", but the lad should know better in the current political climate. Perhaps he does not care because the people who believe that it is their money because they earned it are not likely to vote for him the time anyway. Here is a related question. Why do Hollywood millionaires and billionaires who, when asked what THEY produce, would have to give some stupid answer like "we produce dreams" are never demonized for their 7 to 9 figure annual incomes?

Not quite. The business owner is the engine of growth. So yea, other peoples money went into roads/schools/etc. but where did that money come from? It didn't appear out of thin air (regardless of what Obama's "economists" tell you). It was based on the work effort of folks who took a risk.