1084 quenchant

[knife to a gunfight]

here is a guy who uses is what looks like a section of 4" pipe secured by the base w/ a flange to some 2x2s using parks.

Where do you get one of those electric submersible heating elements? Though, it is probably not necessary w/ the parks 50 on a hot day, workign range is 50-120? Though, probably hotter is better...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRA-PihJI1Qhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRA-PihJI1Q

Wow... it's been a while since I've seen that vid. Never the less the quench tank is still going strong! As for the heating element, it's nothing more than a standard electric water heater element. I just turn it on for about 10 or 20 seconds, and it easily and rapidly heats about 1 to 2 gallons of quenchant up to 120F or so. I think the biggest issue was that it was a little tough to get a water (or in this case, oil) tight seal after drilling in the element. Some high temp silicone and a little bit of "mighty putty" worked like a charm though. Just relying on the rubber gasket that comes with the element won't cut it. Now that being said, I originally put the element in to heat veg/canola oil. Parks RARELY needs to be heated, except for the occasional winter day when my shop is below 50F. A hot piece of steel would serve the same purpose I suppose.

Some random comments:
1) Making a quench tank from PVC is a bad idea. PVC melts. A 1500°F piece of steel can go right through it by accident. Nothing meltable, easily pierced, or breakable should EVER be used for a quench tank.

This was a foremost consideration when I built the tank. The simplest solution I could think of was to line the inside of the pipe with a piece of sheet metal flue pipe / vent pipe. Just cut the seams out and, coil the pipe a little bit, and push it in. Now there might be an issue if I drop the blade into the bottom of the tank, as I didn't line that part, but after dozens of quenches, I've never had an issue. Even pushing the blade against the sides of the lined tank won't melt through, as the steel is more than cooled enough after being in the oil for a couple of seconds.

At any rate, my only caveat to this design is that due to the inner diameter of the pipe and the volume of quenchant surrounding the blade, it's best suited for small to medium sized blades. I've used it for larger blades (2" wide and up to 12" long or so) and it works, but don't expect to do more than one blade per session, as the oil heats up a little more than I would like for doing a second blade.

[knife to a gunfight]

BTW... the next tank I build will likely be a little bigger, and I've though about stacking two to three paint cans together and JB welding them together. Just cut out the bottoms of the stacked cans, and you have a 2 or 3 gallon tank.

Lastly, if you're worried about puncturing a PVC tank, you could always set it in a metal container (trash can for instance) to catch any oil that might spill or leak out.

As I've said, I've never had an issue.

[Mudbug007]

the steel is more than cooled enough after being in the oil for a couple of seconds.

This has been my experience as well. If the blade was 1500 degrees when it touched the side or bottom, I might agree about there being a problem. But it's not. I think 1095 get's below 900 from 1475 within half a second or so when using #50. (don't quote me as that being exact, seems I remember KC saying something along this line on his video)

I've dropped a piece of 1x1x18 mild steel bar when it slipped out of my extra long vise grips. It was bright orange when I pulled it out of the forge and I cringed when it slipped out. But it didn't burn through the bottom cap.

I've also dropped a piece of 3/8" rebar into the quench tank after removing it from the forge without any consequences. Now having said this, just as with KTAGF, the longest knives I've quenched have been around 8 or 9 inches overall. If I quenched bowies or swords I might have a different opinion.

I plan on making one out of 6" PVC in the near future as the one I'm using now allows the oil to heat up too quickly when quenching more than two blades. I'll probably upgrade one of these days to a keg, but right now this set up works very well for me. And if it's not broke.....

[stevomiller]

Guys, why use a material that can melt or burn if you have a flare up and can't cover it soon enough? Are you sure of longterm chemical compatibility between the quench oil and plastic? And why would you JB Weld paint cans together?! We aren't living in post apocalypse times where you MUST make do with unsafe methods in hopes of survival.

[Vulcanite]

Rick, did you say you were quenchin in a horizontal tank spine first?? Why and what problems did you have quenching tip down into a verticle tank??

I was not fully comfortable with the pvc concept but lining it with stove pipe or whatever is a clever idea. I also thought of trying to find some way to stack paint cans but couldnt think of a way to seal.

The only other thing i could think of is a big peice of stove pipe or something set up in a bucket of concrete or plaster to seal the bottom.

[Vulcanite]

Rick,
Also where did u get your oil from? Also, who made your tank and out of what? It seems hard to be able to get short peices of 6+" steel pipe.

[Brian Ayres]

Stacy is right about the PVC pipe... one wrong plunge and you will lose all of your oil... or worse. I do see a lot of folks using them and I cringe.

I was one of those guys who made everything I saw and spent a lot of time learning through trial and error. I should have read and asked more questions.
For the type of blades I was making, the vertical tank gave me an aweful "tip-dip"... kinda like a reverse sori. The answer was quenching spine first and the vertical tank would not accomodate. The horizontal is much more versitile in the long run. Just my personal opinion. I use Houghton Quench K and love it!

Vulcanite,

Rick answered your question already.....
It is because he was getting reverse sori.( Sori is the natural curve a Japanese blade develops when quenched.(simple explanation) Sometimes quenching with oil vs water will cause the tip to drop(cause the blade to curve down).

His source for welded tanks and even for Houghton Quench will likely not help you because he's a Canadian.....

[Brian Ayres]

Rick,
Also where did u get your oil from? Also, who made your tank and out of what? It seems hard to be able to get short peices of 6+" steel pipe.

http://www.lehmanpipe.com/miami-pipe-supply.html

Since your profile only says FL. I can't really direct you to any particular place. Here's one possible place.

http://www.jimssupply.com/Category/Steel_Service_Center

[sunshadow]

I just migwelded a piece of 6 inch schedule 40 steel pipe to a flat plate for a tank, works great

-Page

[knife to a gunfight]

Guys, why use a material that can melt or burn if you have a flare up and can't cover it soon enough? Are you sure of longterm chemical compatibility between the quench oil and plastic? And why would you JB Weld paint cans together?! We aren't living in post apocalypse times where you MUST make do with unsafe methods in hopes of survival.

I keep a cap right next to my tank at all times, as well as an appropriately rated fire extinguisher. That being said, PVC is not very flammable at all anyhow. As for chemical compatibility, you do realize that the quenchant comes in a plastic bucket in the first place right?

http://www.plasticsintl.com/datasheets/PVC.pdf

I estimate that I've had Parks 50 in my tank 24/7 for somewhere around 2 years, and I haven't lost a single drop due to leaks.

Now, as for the paint cans, why not? It's not like the tank will be under pressure. According to their website: "When fully cured, J-B Weld is completely resistant to water, gasoline, and about every other petroleum product or automotive chemical."

In the end, it's still a heck of a lot cheaper than finding a steel tank (or fabricating one) of equal size. You just have to make sure you get a good seal.

I suppose you could also try to find an old oxygen tank (or similar) and cut the top off. Even then, you're still gonna be paying quite a bit for the tank if it's in decent shape.

[Dan Pierson]

I don't know how to weld so I got a couple surplus mortar shell cases. Readily available,
cheap, solid metal with water tight lids, which is great for storage. The ones I have are
probably a bit too large since 5 gallons of oil doesn't fill them up. I've worked around
this and helped with the balance by putting a couple of layers of bricks in the bottoms.

One other thing no one has mentioned in this thread: If you do decide to edge quench,
don't waste the fancy quenching oils, especially Parks 50 on it. The flare up from
edge quenching will very quickly destroy the special characteristics of the oil.

[Don Nguyen]

One other thing no one has mentioned in this thread: If you do decide to edge quench,
don't waste the fancy quenching oils, especially Parks 50 on it. The flare up from
edge quenching will very quickly destroy the special characteristics of the oil.

That's quite interesting, and I have never heard or thought of that.

Why does the flare up destroy the characteristics, and what are the consequences?

[Dan Pierson]

Check some of the past HT threads for details. As I understand it: specialized HT
oils include additives for such purposes as decreasing cavitation and adjusting the
quenching speed at different temperatures (e.g. slower cooling below, say, 800 F).
Setting the oil on fire damages these additives more than the oil itself.

[bladsmth]

To keep this from digressing into another quench tank thread, I will link to last weeks quench tank thread. Post all quench tank comments and suggestions there:


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...ht=quench+tank

[Vulcanite]

I found houghton quench k online for $255/5 gallons. I talked to some place in OH and he called HI and called me back and told me $300! Said that HI is not wanting to bother with pails anymore w/o an exhorbinate profit margin. Found a company w/ distributers in FL and GA. They dont keep pails on hand anywhere but will check with HI in the AM. We will see if they tell the same story... if so, ill just get the parks 50 from maxim. Would be disappointing if HI really went that direction.

[Vulcanite]

Too bad there isnt a heat treat supplies place that caters to knifers like Aldo with steel.

[Rick Marchand]

Aldo was looking into quenchants at one point..... that might still be a possibility.

[Brian Ayres]

Kelly Cupples is a steel supplier and he stocks quenchant.

[knife to a gunfight]

Have you guys checked Maxim Oil? Not only do they make their own quenchannts (a few of which, from what I've read and understand, are comparable to many of the standards used by knife makers, and at a decent price as of a couple of years ago), but they also distribute a couple of well known brands at prices that can't be beat. They sold me a bucket of Parks 50. I don't remember if they carried Houghton at the time...

They also seemed willing to place orders if enough people showed interest and they were relatively sure they could move the product.

[Mudbug007]

Too bad there isnt a heat treat supplies place that caters to knifers like Aldo with steel.

Oh, but wait, there is! It's called Maxim Oil! They bent over backwards for me and gladly answered every question I threw at them. Nice folks, super quick shipping and some of the best prices I've seen.

Give 'em a call or email them. Here's their website http://www.MaximOil.com